The Choir Room Podcast

Catching Up with Dr. Michelle Margiotta

• Metromusic & Arts • Episode 43

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We explore how choirs can thrive without musicians, why hymns remain a powerful training ground, and how arranging “in color” links sound to story. Dr. Michelle Margiata shares her journey from Long Island worship to Nashville classrooms and studios, blending craft, faith, and fearless creativity.

• starting a cappella with smart YouTube searches and hymnals
• matching repertoire to your choir’s real range and stamina
• why “tape don’t lie” matters for honest refinement
• church vs college choir expectations and pressure
• teaching vulnerability and emotion alongside technique
• orchestration as color and texture serving the text
• the limits of gospel choir imitation without heart
• hymns as theology, memory, and intergenerational glue
• breaking music theory rules with purpose and taste
• singing to God vs performing for approval

Be sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts so you don’t miss the next episode; like and share with a friend and tell them that you were in the choir room

https://michellemargiotta.com/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88aY2TZgJus

https://kathytroccoli.com/

Perpetuating and Promoting the Christian and Positive Idea Through the Medium of Music and Other Arts.

Welcome And Mission

SPEAKER_01

This is episode 43 of the Choir Room Podcast. I'm Greg Tom as your host, and I will soon be joined by my co-host, Dorian Johnson. And the other stanzo Ferrar. This podcast exists to promote and encourage two longtime traditions in our society that seem to be dwindling away, and that is choir and corporate singing. We hope to revive the excitement and joy experienced with singing in a choir, as well as inform and educate the listener on all things singing and all things choir. And this podcast is a production of Metro Music and Arts whose purpose is to perpetuate and promote the Christian and positive idea through the medium of music and other arts. Our guest today in the choir room is a composer, arranger, music educator, choir directress, and a musician playing guitar and piano, and she's a dear friend. We welcome to the choir room, Dr. Michelle Margiata. One of the topics we're going to get into today is the parallels between choir vocal arrangements and arranging for band or orchestra and a few other things, of course. But before we get to Michelle, Mietta has our CRQ. Thanks, Greg.

SPEAKER_02

Tonight our CRQ is as follows. Can you recommend some a cappella groups that my choir can study? We don't have musicians and are learning to love a cappella scene. Wow.

SPEAKER_01

That sounds like a question for a directress. Watch your pitch.

SPEAKER_02

Watch your pitch.

SPEAKER_01

Watch your pitch. Stan so for Raw.

SPEAKER_02

That's gonna be my name.

SPEAKER_01

That was your email address.

SPEAKER_02

Yes.

SPEAKER_01

But you used to say it a lot.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I would say that, but it is an email address. Anybody sending me music.

SPEAKER_01

Well, considering the topic, you should go first.

SPEAKER_02

I'll try. Um uh I have to first be honest, I've never been in that situation, so thank God, I guess, but I do um love hearing. I will say I do love hearing acapella boots, a cappella choirs, even. Um, we had spoken about this just before the podcast, and I'm just gonna throw it out there and I'm sure Greg will pick it up. Um, one of the avenues uh that you can, I don't have a solid recommendation, but I do know that one of the avenues you can use in situations like that, um, our YouTube uh venue or YouTube avenue that you can search. It might be, it might take you some time, take you a while to find. Um, but it also in that you have to also consider what your vocals are, what it is you're working with. And we have to consider that not every choir or not every group can attack all a cappella music because it doesn't fit everyone. You know, just because you love to sing it doesn't necessarily mean that it will fit your particular uh group of singers. So you have to first find that out, find out where your singers are regarding that. So if you've been, you know, singing music and and it's been working, then you try to look for the same type of music that you that has been working for you, a cappella. Um it's okay to venture out and and try some of the probably the more intricate uh stuff, but you know, you start start there, start with with YouTube. Um, I don't really know any other, uh maybe other gentlemen, other gentlemen have other areas where you can search out some a cappella groups. The groups that we grew up uh listening, well that I grew up listening to were um take six, you know, they they did things like that. I don't know if those are the type of singers you have, whoever this um this question is coming from. Not certain of what kind of singers you have, but Text Take Six was a group that we've you know listened to quite a bit. Um and then it probably sure goes on from there, goes on from there. But if you search out, you know, the YouTube Avenue and also make sure that your singers are able to attack or able to do these um particular songs. Yeah, but gentlemen, what say you?

SPEAKER_05

So I was actually gonna say your your basic hymnal usually has parts in it. So I mean, take six can be pretty intricate in terms of their harmonies, yeah, with uh those jazz voicings, yeah, exactly. But you pick up a hymnal and you just start with some of your of the hymns, maybe some of the hymns of the week, and look at those and see. I mean, and the and when you look at at a hymnal, most of the the parts aren't that complicated, they're pretty simple, and so that that might be a place to even start. And and you can definitely find um, I would say pretty good versions of hymns with parts on YouTube and in other places, and you can just go from there and you can sing it, a cappella. I think if you just have somebody that can pound out the parts and sort of everybody gets it into their head and they can sing it, then that can minister as well.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I think YouTube is a great start, and some of the other uh outlets as well online. Um, but you gotta be sure to be specific about your search, otherwise the algorithm starts feeding you things that have nothing to do with uh a cappella singing, you know, dogs singing with their owners and all kinds of other stuff. So don't be clear about your search. And I'll echo what Dorian said about the hymns. You you can find great arrangements of hymns that are a cappella, uh, some by choir, some by ensembles, but you can adapt some of the ensemble versions to your choir and vice versa. Um and then to Mieta's point, uh, while you're doing your search for new music for a cappella music, you have to know the limitations of your group. You have to know what they're capable of. We often sound good to ourselves when we sing together all the time. When you finally got that one section right, it starts to sound really good. You think you're chiming along, and you might be. But I'm reminded of an old phrase we used to use in the industry, and that is tape don't lie. So uh, in all seriousness, when you do find that music, rehearse it, rehearse it and rehearse it so that when you do perform it, nobody can say, boy, we wish they had musicians.

SPEAKER_02

Gotcha, huh?

Hymn Of The Week: The Church’s One Foundation

SPEAKER_05

This week's hymn of the week is the church's one foundation. In Acts chapter 3, Peter and John are in the temple, and Peter and John encounter a lame man who is begging, and they heal him of his lameness. They then go about preaching in the temple and are eventually arrested and brought before the council. And in their interaction with the council, they make a staunch defense of the gospel and their preaching to uh the people. And as they are doing this, Peter says this in verse 10 of chapter 4. Let it be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by him this man is standing before you well. This Jesus is the stone that was rejected by you, the builders, which has become the cornerstone. The church's cornerstone is the Lord Jesus Christ. And the church is the body of Christ. And as Peter states in his defense, Christ is the cornerstone and the foundation of the church. This hymn was written in response to a controversy that arose in the Anglican Church during the late 19th century, where both the accuracy of some of the events of the Bible and some articles of the Christian faith were questioned. And in response to this controversy, Samuel John Stone wrote this hymn in 1866 based on Article 9 of the Apostles' Creed, which states the belief in the Holy Catholic Church, where Catholic means the true Christian Church of all times and all places, stating once again that there is a common communion of the saints. This hymn has six verses, and we won't go through all six verses, but I would commend this hymn to you to listen to a recording. But I want to give highlights of the first three verses in particular because they speak to specific portions of Scripture. In Colossians 1:18, we read, and he, referring to Christ, is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. And in verse 1, we read the church's one foundation is Jesus Christ her Lord. She is his new creation by water and the word. From heaven he came and sought her to be his holy bride. With his own blood he bought her, and for her life died. In Ephesians chapter 4, verses 4 through 6, we read, There is one body and one spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. In verse 2, we read, Elect from every nation, yet one or all the earth, her charter of salvation, one Lord, one faith, one birth, one holy name she blesses, partakes one holy food, and to one hope she presses with every grace endued. And then as we go through other parts of this hymn, it talks about the scorn that the church receives from the world. It talks about the internal debates and schisms that occur within the church. And ultimately in verse 6, it points to the church's union with Christ. And in verse 6 we read, Yet she on earth hath union with God, the three in one, and mystic sweet communion with those whose rest is one. O happy ones and holy, Lord, give us grace that we, like them the meek and lowly, on high might dwell with thee. In this hour where so many truths of scripture and the truth of the church is under attack, and we see so many divisions within the church as well. May we once again look to Christ, who is the church's one foundation.

SPEAKER_03

Welcome to the choir room.

SPEAKER_01

We're not big into titles around the choir room, but our guest today has several of them. She's a composer, arranger, music educator, vocalist, musician, choir directress, and a few other things. Would you welcome to the choir room? Our dear friend Dr. Michelle Margiana. Dr. Moosh, welcome to the choir room.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, it's so good to be here. I can't I'd seen so many faces that people that I haven't seen in goodness, I don't know, 15 years, Dorian. I want to like give you a big squeeze right now. It's so good to see you.

SPEAKER_05

I receive it virtually. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, virtual screen.

SPEAKER_05

There's gonna be a lot of that.

SPEAKER_00

So long. I know this is it warms my heart to see a lot of you.

SPEAKER_01

It's good to have you here. Great to be here. Well, we have to start from the beginning. Tell us where it started for you in this ministry of music.

Calling, Education, And Worship Journey

SPEAKER_00

Oh goodness. Uh well, I I grew up in the church and fell in love with worship. I had an experience with God and feeling his presence, and it was so real to me as as a young at a young age. And I just remember I'd go home. I at first did not want to play piano or an instrument, but I was so in love with worship, I would I realized and discovered I had a an ear for music and for and I would come home and listen to the songs sung at church, and I would go and pluck pluck out the melodies and the chords. And I just found myself at a young age just wanting to cultivate uh being a worshiper. And it kind of just grew into becoming a worship leader at a very young age in church at youth group. And then I was I felt led to go to the university and get my degree, um, and was exposed to incredible uh teachers and and directors, and and the worship program over there was just it was so full, so it just cultivated so much in me. Um and then yeah, I just been in church all my life and came back out of another uh directing position in uh on on Long Island. I can't say in Long Island because my family yells at me, but on Long Island. It is an I and um and it was continuing school in the interim because I I discovered also how much I love to learn. Okay, and I fell in love with learning, and I think part of that was my teachers, that my teachers saw just they they saw the the strengths in me that I didn't see and they they pulled that out of me and um it just it just made me want to know more and also knowing that like with David play skillfully and um just to be just to be a person of excellence and um so yeah, so I went back to school and somehow ended up in your office I knew that was that was uh a god thing for sure. And um then wanted to further my education went back and finished my doctorate and wound up on the road the whole time as a worship leader slash uh arranger slash uh music um director for Kathy Coley. And that kind of led me to moving to Nashville later on, and um I right now I'm working currently at Belmont University and Lipscomb University. So you're busy, and goodness, this is reader digest.

SPEAKER_01

So you're holding two or three jobs, yeah, yeah. Talk about that a little later.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, so it's just music has been such a journey and such a part of my life to where I I'm working with so many muscles, but I feel like it's many things but a part of one one thing. And uh it's yeah, even just the the topic of worship, it's it's uh it's one central thing that I'm doing in in my teaching and in in the church, but also in the classroom. So it's it's been an incredible journey.

SPEAKER_01

So you weren't born in Nashville, and I think our audience caught that. Uh you are a native Long Islander born on the island. Yes. And uh I imagine going to Nashville was a culture shock, perhaps. It's a different landscape than New York City, it's a different vibe um than Long Island, obviously. Slightly different from New York, but although it seems to be moving toward feeling like the same.

SPEAKER_00

It is. I to be honest, culture shock was more when I went to Lee University uh near Chattanooga. I in fact I was I was back there recently, I think two years ago, and I I I laughed. I was like, I can't believe my mom let me come here because being a New Yorker and going that deep south, I laugh about it now. But um you know, New York, you everybody's just in your in your bubble. Yeah. And if somebody starts to talk to you, you're like, what do you want? You know, everybody's underspect. Um but coming to Nashville in some ways it still is it's a culture shock, but it's become like a melting pot. So I'm finding a lot of people from the east and west coast are are moving here and it feels similar. It feels similar in some ways, and in other ways, I I miss the uh the food, the New York food.

Moving From Long Island To Nashville

SPEAKER_01

On every corner. I was talking to a mutual friend of ours not long ago, and we were discussing briefly uh the uh flip-flop, as it seems, uh between New York City and and Nashville, where at one point New York City was the place to come to when you were a songwriter or you wanted to get into the studio or wanted to make it big on Broadway, yeah. That was the place to come to you. And and it still is to an extent, but then Nashville has become the scene over the past couple of decades or more, uh, where that's where all the studios are, that's where all the songwriters are or wannabe songwriters, and all of the people who want to make it big in the industry, that's where they are. The competition is fierce, however. It is uh probably a lot more fierce than it's ever been.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Um, which is why a lot of the singers and songwriters are still waiting tables. What drew you to Nashville?

SPEAKER_00

Well, it it was scary. It took a a while for I I would say for about five or six years I was thinking about it, but I didn't have the peace to come. And I I remember being on the road and I something happened in me. I because I kept saying the last thing that Nashville needs is another musician.

SPEAKER_01

It's like just one more, you know, just another music, like can I make it here?

SPEAKER_00

Can I can I um you know survive? But I just felt the peace of God. I remember praying about it, and I had some mentors in my life just speaking to me. And um, I I was in and out of Nashville a ton because I was on the road with Kathy. So I was starting to meet a lot of people and developing a community and they were kind of cheering me on, going, you know, you could teach, you could do this, you can go to the studio, you know, all this. And so I took the plunge, I I dove in headfirst and it ripped it ripped my heart because I I left everything I knew and it was it was hard, but I would say within the first year of being here, the Lord just opened up so many doors. It was uh teaching jobs, working at churches, writing, um arranging, orchestrating. So it was every time I thought, okay, I'm gonna go back home, then another door would open. So it was yeah, so the Lord just kind of gave me that grace as as I took the risk.

Church vs College Choir Dynamics

SPEAKER_01

In the choir room, we try to speak to various aspects of choir church choir, community choir, college choir, university, uh, show choir. You've worked with both church choir and college choir, and I'm sure some things in between. What have you found the significant difference to be between working with a church group and a college group?

SPEAKER_00

Well, academia is it's more about uh a couple of things. The genres, it's like they want you to be well-rounded in in the genres that you pick. So like even right now I'm doing a vocal jazz ensemble, which is so much fun. So even as I choose music for them, I'm going, I want something current, something that they can relate to culturally, but then I want to give them the the um just the the whole backdrop of what jazz really is. So I'll I'll get a standard that I think they should know, that everybody should know. So I go put traditional something a little bit in between, and then something current, but for church acquires goodness. Um I do think it should be a little bit of the the same where you have the culture of the church, the tradition. That that should always stand because I think we try to be we always we try to be. um relevant culturally relevant today.

SPEAKER_01

But I think there's more of an uh a flexibility with church choir that you could be um more improv, sure um spontaneous more spontaneous and so it's I think you're more to the book with academia and then you're more I think you have a little bit um more freedom with the church yeah yeah uh environment I would say wouldn't you agree that church choir most church choirs anyway uh we get more of what I like to call the whosoever will come choir um so you don't have to be super skilled but you gotta be able to hold a note. Whereas in academia, a college or university, you have to have some musical background. Uh you still have to audition uh like you do in some church choirs, but this is a different level of expectation. Correct?

SPEAKER_00

Yes very much so I think it's more more pressure on um how you can perform and obviously with the church choir you you want you want excellence but you'd be I say this to you we would be surprised uh what we could pull out of people that don't have any experience and like you said if they can hold a note right um I've been shocked with what comes out of choirs of people that have not had any background in education.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah so there's almost like a a clean slate sometimes that you're you're not held within boundaries of academia right you know what I've discovered Michelle and I think you'll agree with me is that the non-academia singer the person who is singing because they just love to sing that's coming from they're singing with a different passion. Oh yeah they're not singing for anybody else they're not singing for a grade they're not singing to get through the semester that's true they're singing because they absolutely love to sing. Yes. Where in academia yes you can sing and you have to be able to do so but you also have to meet a certain standard um the professor will place on you and expect you to to accomplish musically certain things. Now between those two types of singers there is a passion that both can have but it's delivered differently you can learn it um often imitate it but not necessarily duplicate it you can study it but not necessarily be it that's an excellent point I've never thought of that because I spend so much time trying to pull out emotion from my academia choirs.

Technique, Emotion, And Authenticity

SPEAKER_00

Yeah it's like I I I have to go I have to really do backflips in going just picture yourself in this situation or or picture yourself like connect your emotion but when you're talking about church choir it's like all you have to do is think of one testimony of the many testimonies in our lives and immediately you're connected and the expression is it's just more attainable I think I've never really I never really compared those two.

Featured Track And Creative Process

Orchestration Through Color

SPEAKER_01

You know I've discovered it to be very similar even with jazz singers um with all of the emotion and the perfection you can sing all of the notes and get them all right and everything can be perfect. Timing is perfect your articulation is perfect pitch is perfect. At the end of the day it's just perfect it's almost too perfect. And uh so you you have to still be able to teach that emotion and reach that emotion and express that emotion feel that song those embellishments right I I I mean we we learn from both we we can take the technique and there's a parallel between the two um but then what happens is there's a fork in the road there is where you have to become you have to become one with the song and then become that not many people want to go there to that vulnerability it's you're you're just left in the in in the wide open space and and people you have to have the courage to go there just and and but before the Lord when you're worshipping it's it's it is what an audience That's the title track State of Heart from the State of Heart Project by Michelle Margiana. You can find that on iTunes or anywhere else that you purchased your music we'll be sure to put all of that information in the show notes as well. Let's talk about that parallel between vocal arrangement and orchestration when you're writing a song as a composer do you ever hear choir voices in your head as you are orchestrating or arranging the parts for your instrumentation I do I think when I orchestrate it took me a while to get to this place but I think very much in color like I I'm very visual so when I when I write music and when I orchestrate uh or even if I'm doing vocal I it's it's I want the music to reflect the message um so it's it's visual for me but I also I look at um colors and and music kind of paralleling each other so if you're looking at um what's the tone of the the piece or uh the mood of the piece, what are you trying to convey?

SPEAKER_00

Is it warm? Is it is it darker does it need to be brighter? So I look at instruments um like if it if it needs a little bit more brightness like I think of you know uh the flute being pink you know actually color in my in logic sessions I I color all my uh my instruments okay um like the cello I look at as more of a an a deep orange like a burnt orange um the viola a burnt orange yeah trust me um viola I look as like a a velvety purple so the same thing with voices um the human voice is so unique especially as I've learned like the science of frequency okay the voice is is like a fingerprint right like you can't um nobody will ever have your voice or my voice because we're we're made in such a way so the colors of of um the voice is is it's similar to how I look at instruments like if I'm arranging for a vocal arrangement I'm thinking um the brightness the warmth so it's very visual for me and it's very much art a painting interesting interesting now how did you come to is it just a color you see in your head yeah it is I I remember looking at when I first started orchestrating I looked at a blank score and and panicked I was I was going Lord have mercy where do I start and realizing that even the combinations of this the combinations of instruments like a bassoon with a double bass brings a certain kind of quality or texture or color it thickens it and uh I just I've learned as I've gone from blank page to full page that there's it's a dance sure and every instrument um it's not as overwhelming because every instrument has a place it has a purpose um and I I don't even know if anybody taught me that about color I think I just have looked as I've as I've heard music and it makes me feel I've just seen the colors.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah you know our friend John Winelass thinks in color all the time I love John yeah I didn't know that yeah yeah so let's take a little test if I say mezzo soprano what color do you see?

Voices, Instruments, And Synesthetic Colors

Why Group Singing Is Countercultural Now

SPEAKER_00

Huh I would say like a darker yellow like I look at Sopranos as yellow but the mezzo has has more of a like it's a deeper yellow yeah body and that's how I actually color my violins in uh one and two I'll go yellow and uh a darker because you have just a it's still bright but it has a darker shade. Interesting crazy all right first soprano first soprano uh say bright yellow like a brighter yellow um darker yellow okay let me throw this at you contralto ooh contralto um velvet purple okay alto huh alto I would see like a blue okay what about bass red like a rusty red red wow I didn't see that coming okay what about tenor tenor I would see um like a burnt orange okay baritone actually let me switch that the burnt aren't orange would be baritone tenor would be like a green I would say green okay green interesting I've never really talked about this with anyone this is this is fun but I even think about the piano in color too like okay if you look at the piano I look at the piano 88 keys all the same notes right just patterns up and down range but the piano is like an orchestra to me sure sure depending on where you and you know this because you're an excellent pianist but um depending on where you play it it there's different colors mid-rain I can see that now yeah yeah it's beautiful I know our guests have some questions but I'm gonna let Dorian get in here first Dorian Dorian well my my brain is kind of spinning here so I'll you're all talking about all this orchestration stuff but one thing that that's just interesting and I'm and I actually am even reflecting on a sermon from from yesterday uh that uh that I heard and it really comes to a point where where the Bible tells us over and over again to sing and to rejoice before the Lord and and all and we we just see that over and over again.

SPEAKER_05

But what's interesting is that we are now living in a society and culture where it's much more individualized. I mean we all have these things in our ears and it's not it's not a part of our culture particularly in America to sing with other people and to do it regularly and the one place that you see that happening is in the church and that's actually becoming a distinctive within the church but some would say even within the church as we've talked about many times in the choir room you see the choir becoming less and less of a part of the church experience. And even in my church we don't have a choir but we have a great emphasis on congregational singing so when I stand before the congregation they are the choir where the whole the whole church is is the choir. And so I'd be interested in hearing just as you are teaching this generation that that is grown up with cell phones and ear air pods and all of these other things what your experience has been in in being able to get them to come out of the kind of individual and to get into singing with other people and and seeing it not as a weird thing or or something that's countercultural to them.

Choir Culture: Nashville And Times Square

SPEAKER_00

Well I grew up singing in choir and I one of my favorite things about being in choir was feeling it's just the way the church is built and we're the body of Christ and everybody has a place everybody has a purpose when I teach in academia world or in the church world I think it's just this holding um holding each other like it's it's an accountability thing. I mean choir directors Doreen I know you've said this a million times and Greg like uh listen to the person next to you because if you just sing like you're a soloist and and you're not listening to the person next to you you're not blending with them. And I think that was my favorite part was that whoever you were next to you were fitting in as an individual but a part of a whole and that to me was the most it was the most unified feeling of you you feel like you're a part of something greater than yourself. And I it's so symbolic to uh the body of Christ to me being in choir I know that there's going to be choirs in heaven I there are um but I do know what you mean about the the the culture in church it's it's become not as popular and then but then now there's a huge comeback now like they're trying to bring back the beauty of the choir but um it it's just instilling into into the the people that are listening whoever has ears to hear that we're a part of something greater and um you really can't understand it unless you experience it. Because even being at Timesquare church for that short time I was there I mean the the sound was massive and I felt like I was in heaven. I mean I tell people this all the time my my experience being at Timesquare church you had people from all walks of life from all cultures all parts of the world um being a woman and being an American I felt like the minority because everybody was from you know Finland Germany um it was just it was so great and to be together singing as a choir as one I don't know if I'm answering your question but I think to emphasize the unity and and being a part of something greater.

SPEAKER_02

Thank you thank you I thought I'd have a question thank you Dr. Michelle for being with us tonight. You don't know me I don't um I'm learning you for the first time tonight and I must say that I am enjoying listening to you um I have a question though you you speak about um you being a teacher in in the colleges and universities did you and you also I'm going to I hope I'm saying this right or heard this correctly you do teach in churches as well okay yes yes um can you tell tell us the differences in uh acquire culture in Tennessee and Times Square.

Gospel Imitation vs Anointed Expression

SPEAKER_00

Now Times Square is a is a whole different beast as far as I'm concerned it's different yeah I wonder what the differences are uh between those two those two um spaces yeah I haven't been to a ton of uh churches that have choirs here um but uh my my particular church that I'm the music director at in in Franklin they we do have a a small choir that um it does more of a traditional so more of a a traditional classical sound and it's beautiful um but I do I have experienced uh listening to the choir room I met the choir director that um that works there so I think that's probably the biggest choir here one of the biggest choirs here in Nashville uh I do see that a lot of um churches are kind of doing more of the band thing and the the the soloist thing um that's been my experience here maybe I don't get out as much though you know when I speak to my friends in Nashville and others around the country and even in Europe and other places as much as the choir seems to have diminished in the church uh over the past five years and some say it's been going on that the diminishing has been happening much longer than that but need that neither here or there as much as it's been diminished everywhere that I've gone and I don't mean this in a negative way um there seems to have been an a regular imitation of gospel choir around the globe.

SPEAKER_01

Yes which is again I said often gospel choir is often imitated but never duplicated. Although some choirs have gotten really close uh to to the sound that is yeah there there's there's an imitation but never duplication of authentic gospel choir.

SPEAKER_00

Mm-hmm yeah you know I love that yeah you said duplicated and I I think it kind of I you kind of you gave me some wisdom before because I couldn't connect I couldn't the why and and now it's the vulnerability of because even teaching my choir uh I'm not the choir director that I I'm the worship director there but there are times where I'll like implement some some things and I'll try to teach a gospel you know song or but I think the challenge is the vulnerability of feeling like to express your connection to the Lord to express your worship. And I think that's the difference like I've heard gospel choirs that sounded amazing but they just sounded amazing. I didn't feel I didn't feel the the anointing in the heart and the passion for worship and Jesus does that does that make sense I think I think that's what we're lacking even even with Christian music in the industry we're so we're so focused on getting things so perfect and so to sounding so current or culturally relative um or relevant rather that we're we're we're kind of like sifting out the heart and the passion of it and I and we're we're missing out on something big.

SPEAKER_01

You know over the years there's been such a focus on talent and skill and musical diversity and brilliance and I think it has only contributed to the discord between God the Father and his creation that we will focus more on the creation than the creator. And let's be clear that it is not just in gospel music or gospel choir it's CCM it's inspirational it's some of the other music uh much of which has never been a God centered music. It's just music. Now you know what I'm not even gonna go further because we we can go down this hole and I'll be here all night. No you don't want them to go there you don't want them to go there so for the next few moments let's talk about some of the other work you're doing you're traveling and recording with Kathy Tricoli how did that come about?

SPEAKER_00

Oh well I grew up uh in my home church on Long Island her family and was in the same church so I I basically knew of her um and became friends with her family and she realized that I lead worship and she asked me to do a woman's conference and at the time she was looking for another piano player slash worship um director for uh for the road and it was just a God thing at that moment she asked me to do one song and I remember she stood on stage and she looked at me and I just I knew I knew something was happening like almost like you saw the smoke coming out of her head and uh month later she asked me to to go on the road with her full time so I had no idea our our first rehearsal gosh she has 40 years of music and I had to know a learn a lot of music but our first rehearsal was eight hours long I was there all day came to Nashville and at the end of the the session I started playing and she goes wait wait wait what was that you just played and I was just doodling and then she started singing a melody And then we we wrote our first song together. Uh-huh. And from that point on, we've been writing ever since. And it's it's grown into um it's it's really pulled out a lot in me that I never knew I had as far as the orchestral cinematic side of me.

SPEAKER_04

Uh-huh.

Favorite Hymns And Devotional Projects

SPEAKER_00

So we've been doing some more orchestral projects, and um that led me to meeting Kathy Lee Gifford through Kathy Tricola, a lot of Kathy. And and then uh Kathy, as soon as she Kathy Lee invited me on a short film that she did, and she heard my orchestration, so it's been a whole other side. So I've had that cinematic side, and then what you just played now is is kind of my devotional prayer, no words, but just wanting people to be in prayer and uh have a background of music behind it.

SPEAKER_01

So is that your favorite hymn, or or what is your favorite hymn if that's not it?

SPEAKER_00

Oh goodness. I have a couple, yeah. I would say holy, holy, holy is one of my favorite. Um Be Thou My Vision. And I would say my number my number one is I'd rather have Jesus.

SPEAKER_01

Ah, good one. Is that on the Refuge Project?

SPEAKER_00

I do have that, yes.

SPEAKER_01

Cool?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, good, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Uh to our listeners, you can find the project titled Refuge, Michelle Margiana, anywhere you get digital music.

Teaching Hymns To A New Generation

SPEAKER_05

You start talking about hymns, you know my ears. Dory, right? You're chomping at the bit, right? Yeah, right, right, right.

SPEAKER_01

Go ahead, it's all yours.

SPEAKER_05

So, Michelle, how do you how do you see going about, I guess, introducing hymns to a generation that really hasn't grown up with them, and just even reintroducing what what do you think are the or would be a good approach to to doing that? Because I think so much of the hymns not only contain good doctrine, good theology, but it also has the the history of the church in there as well. Yeah, and so yeah, how do you how are you doing that? How do you think we can go about doing that?

Can You Break Music Theory

SPEAKER_00

Start him young. My uh the church I'm at now, uh, we have an incredible children's director, and we're in cahoots with each other because we we do a I heard you're doing a hymn of the week. Is that right? So we we do a hymn of the month, so she spends each week uh giving them you know the song to sing and learning the melody, but then she gives them the history and the backdrop of it. And then what I do is in our our adult congregational setting, um, I mean, I do one, I I implement one hymn at least every Sunday, I think to keep the tradition. Um, but I'll implement the hymn of the month somewhere in that month, um, so that when the kids hear it, they come alive and they're like, oh, we know this. Um I I do think there's something to be said about starting uh because I remember starting them young, because I remember when I was young, I didn't understand hymns and I didn't think they were cool until college. And then all of a sudden I would I would sit and read through the hymn, the hymn book, and they would be my devotional. Like I they became prayers, and um, but I I I found that some of the the children in our church, like I I'm giving one of them piano lessons, and uh every you know, every time we're done with a certain amount of music, I'll go, okay, what do you want to learn now? And she'll she'll name a hymn. And I'm going, she's 12 years old. She's like, I want to play on Christ the Solid Rock. So uh I think I think it's also the job of the parents to you know to implement that at home. Because we're and there's nothing wrong with some of the current music. Some of it is great, some of it is not so great. Um, but but even for the parents to teach their kids, I think is huge.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, yeah. Amen.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05

Thank you.

unknown

Yeah. Welcome to Love World.

SPEAKER_01

During the chat, we started talking about music theory and took some questions from our live audience, uh, some via chat. Uh, but Miet, I know you had a question you wanted to ask, Michelle.

SPEAKER_02

And I know this may sound pretty crazy, but is it possible to mess up uh music theory? And mess up music theory?

SPEAKER_00

Just ask my students. Um, what do you mean by that?

SPEAKER_02

When I when I well, because I'm listening, I I'm not a musician at all. Um I'm a singer, and and as a singer, we're usually off the cuff a lot. Um but when it comes to musicianship and musicians playing, I hear a lot about music theory. I don't know anything about it. Um, but I've heard other musicians say, well, that's not theoretically proper.

Singing To God, Not For Grades

SPEAKER_00

I hate when people say that music. Well, I there's something also if you've never had any experience with music, you can hear a bad note and know it's a bad note. Isn't that crazy? We can all go, that's not in tune. That's not right. Yeah. So um there's this thing that I call like if I were to play a minor second, a half step together, it's so dissonant it hurts your ears. It's like thank you, thanks, Greg. There it is. But now, Greg, play play uh an A minor seven with the nine in it. Play the Yeah. So play that minor second, and sit play B and C and then play the A minor seven, yeah. So I call it beautifully dissonant. There's something about so you know, in music theory, I I don't say rules anymore because it's always learn the rules and and break them.

SPEAKER_01

Break them, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

So sometimes if you think too much, it it it helps to know theory. But then sometimes you'll break that and you'll do something completely outside the box that just works. I have uh, you know, Kathy Trolley, she was she was frowned upon because they would say all of her career, you're just a singer. And she would ask them to do certain things and they'd go, You can't do that, it's not theoretically correct. But she couldn't translate or articulate what she wanted, so they didn't take the time to understand her. And then when I as I started writing with her, I I started interpreting, it took a long time, but I started interpreting what she was looking for, and it it was like, You're a genius. How did you hear that? And I thought she was so off, but when she finally was able to get me to understand what she was looking for, she was theoretically on the money and she was never trained. So I don't know if that helps, but perfect.

SPEAKER_01

I'm gonna have to agree and then add a little bit that some of the best singers are the untrained ones. I think they sing from a different place because they're singing to someone. I mean, especially when we're talking about Christian music or gospel music, we sing to someone uh and not for someone. Uh we don't sing for God, we sing to him, and but it's not for him because singing is for us, it's about him, but it's for us. Uh, that is our channel. He would still be God whether we sing to him or not. Yeah. So singing is for us. The benefits for us, but it's unto him.

SPEAKER_00

I like prayer too.

Closing And Listener CTA

SPEAKER_01

A minute's in a channel of prayer, exactly. Our friend Dr. Michelle Margiata. Michelle, thanks for joining us here in the choir room, and we look forward to having you back here with us real soon.

SPEAKER_00

Thanks for having me. This has been so wonderful.

SPEAKER_01

In the meantime, to our live and listening audience, you can find Michelle Margiata's music anywhere you purchase digital music. And if you haven't done so already, wherever you get your podcast, be sure to subscribe so that you can be informed when the next podcast is posted. And be sure to like and share with a friend and tell them that you were in the choir room. And remember, if ever we put the messenger before the message, we have failed to present an unblemished gospel. I'm Greg Thomas. Join us again next time here in the choir room.

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Gregory L. Thomas

Host
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Dorian Johnson

Co-host
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Mietta Farrar

Co-host