The Choir Room Podcast
This podcast exists to promote and encourage two long-time traditions in our society that seem to be dwindling…The Choir and Corporate Singing. We hope to revive the excitement and joy experienced with singing in a choir, as well as inform and educate the listener on all things singing, and all things choir related.
A weekly podcast featuring discussion and interviews with choir directors, choir members, and other guests representing church choirs, college and university choirs, community choirs, show and theatre choirs, composer of choir music, and other.
Segments include tips and instruction from skilled and professional disciplines within the choir community covering topics such as choir culture and community, choir directing, vocal training, ear training, sight reading, and more. A monthly virtual live audience episode allows the listener to engage with hosts and guests during instructional and Q&A segments via the live recording, chat, email, on various social media platforms.
A production of Metromusic & Arts, Inc.
- www.metromusic-arts.com
- thechoirroom@metromusic-arts.com
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The Choir Room Podcast
Unlocking Choir Mastery: Rehearsal Strategies, Theological Reflections on 'My Hope is Built on Nothing Less', and Band Collaboration With Ben and Renee Westry
There is no single way of conducting a successful choir rehearsal. Unlock some of the secrets to conducting effective choir rehearsals with insights from seasoned choir directors and their friends, Ben and Renee Westry, music directors at the Full Gospel Interdenominational Church. Ben and Renee discuss their journey from being young musicians in their church to becoming influential leaders in their music ministry.
Join Greg Thomas, along with co-hosts Dorian Johnson and Mietta Stansil-Farrar, as they share best practices for managing church choir and band dynamics. Then, learn about the hymn of the week, "My Hope is Built on Nothing Less," as Dorian delves into its deep theological roots and scriptural connections. Mietta will also lead the group as they tackle listener questions on coordinating combined rehearsals, stressing the value of holding separate sessions for choirs and bands to ensure a focused practice environment.
Laugh along with us as we recount the humorous antics of musicians who just can’t resist tinkering with their instruments during rehearsals. We'll also explore the strategic benefits of separating choir and band rehearsals to minimize distractions and highlight the disciplined efforts needed for special events like Christmas and Resurrection Sunday. We discuss some of the nuts and bolts of managing a church band and choir, from early planning and song selection to using digital tools for efficient preparation.
As we close, reflect on the importance of prioritizing the message over the messenger and join us in celebrating the timeless traditions of the church choir and corporate singing. Don’t forget to subscribe, like, and share the Choir Room Podcast to keep these insightful conversations going!
Perpetuating and Promoting the Christian and Positive Idea Through the Medium of Music and Other Arts.
Welcome to the Choir Room. This is episode 39 of the Choir Room Podcast.
Speaker 2:Welcome to the Choir.
Speaker 1:Room. I'm Greg Thomas, your host, and I'll soon be joined by my co-hosts, Dorian Johnson Welcome to the Choir Room and Mietta Stansil-Farrar. This podcast exists to promote and encourage two longtime traditions in our society that seem to be dwindling away, and that is choir and corporate singing, and we hope to revive the excitement and joy experienced with singing in a choir, as well as inform and educate the listener on all things singing and all things choir. And this podcast is a production of Metro Music and Arts, whose purpose is to perpetuate and promote the Christian and positive idea through the medium of music and other arts.
Speaker 1:Now, there is no one single way to conduct a choir rehearsal or conduct a choir in your church services. Today, we discuss some of these best practices as we continue with our focus on the church choir during this season. We are joined by husband and wife team choir director and music director of the Full Gospel Interdenominational Church in Manchester, Connecticut. Husband and wife team, Mr and Mrs, Ben and Renee Westry. Now that's a little clip from their choir rehearsal and we're going to talk to them about their best practices in a little bit, but before they come, Dorian is going to give us our hymn of the week.
Speaker 3:Thanks, greg, us in a little bit, but before they come, dorian is going to give us our hymn of the week. Thanks, greg. This week's hymn of the week is my Hope is Built on Nothing. Less In 1834, edward Mote was reported to be walking along and thought to himself to write a hymn on the gracious experience of a Christian, and from that thought came this hymn that we sing all throughout the world today. This hymn reminds me of various portions of Scripture. We read in Psalm 40, verse 2, I waited patiently for the Lord. He inclined to me and heard my cry. He drew me up from the pit of destruction, out of the miry bog, and set my feet upon a rock, making my steps secure. Then we hear the words of Christ at the end of the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 7, verses 24 and 25, where he says Everyone then, who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock. And the rain fell and the floods came and the winds blew and beat on that house, but it did not fall because it had been founded on the rock. Because it had been founded on the rock.
Speaker 3:This great hymn is so full of rich theology, pointing us to all that Christ has gained for us in his atoning death and in his perfect life gaining for us forgiveness of sins and gaining for us also a perfect righteousness before the Father. Familiar verses read in verse 1, my hope is built on nothing less than Jesus' blood and righteousness. I dare not trust the sweetest frame but wholly lean on Jesus' name. We're reminded that the Christian goes through various trials and difficult circumstances, but despite those circumstances, christ is still with us, and we hear that in verse 2. When we sing, when darkness veils his lovely face, I rest on his unchanging grace. In every high and stormy gale, my anchor holds within the veil. In stormy gale, my anchor holds within the veil.
Speaker 3:Verse 3 reminds us of God's great faithfulness to who he is, of his covenant with his people, the covenant that was sealed with the blood of Christ, as we read in Jude 24, which says Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory, with great joy. To the only God, our Savior. Through Jesus Christ, our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority before all time and now and forever. Amen. And verse 4 points us to that great day when it says when he shall come with trumpet sound, oh, may I then in him be found, dressed in his righteousness alone, faultless, to stand before the throne.
Speaker 3:And, of course, after each of those verses, we have that famous refrain On Christ, the solid rock, I stand. All other ground is sinking sand. All other ground is sinking sand. Are you standing on that solid rock, or are you standing on some other place that you think is a stable place to stand? Well, this hymn reminds us that anything other than Christ is sinking sand. Place your trust in Christ, place your feet firmly upon the one who is indeed the solid rock.
Speaker 2:I will shout and sing in praise for him. Lord Standing on the promise, let the tears of Christ pass me by Glory in the highest. I will shout and sing in praise for him, lord, for Christ has come in.
Speaker 1:Christ, you just heard two very different arrangements of that great hymn, the Solid Rock, the first one by the Brentwood Baptist Church Choir and Orchestra and the second one by the late Walter Hawkins on Love Alive 4. And Mietta has our new CRQ.
Speaker 4:Thanks, Greg. Tonight's CRQ. When our choir and band rehearse together, it's a bit messy. How should you conduct both rehearsals together and make them productive?
Speaker 1:Wow, did they use the word messy.
Speaker 4:Messy, that's the word that they used. Messy, well, I can tell you, mine is quick. I don't think that I make it a practice not to rehearse new music with the band and the choir together. That's a no-no for me. I would not suggest you do it that way. Now, everything, everyone is different. Choirs are different. I don't. You can have to consider, maybe, rehearsal space. I don't know what your issues may be. However, rehearsing both of them together it will become messy, it will be.
Speaker 4:I am a firm believer that you should rehearse with musicians first and make sure that they are on point with the music, separate of singers, separate of singers. Don't even have singers in the room, just you and the music and we work it out, hammer it out and when the choir comes. You know it's kind of sketchy when it comes to the choir, because I also rehearse choir without band, if, if, that makes sense. You know some people can do that. Thank God I'm able to do that. I've known people who are able to do that so that the choir will have have have a better sense of what the notes should sound like without all of the band, all of the music surrounding it. You know, just listening to it in its raw form. That way they can blend and do what's necessary and needed for that. If you can do that, that's great, that's great, but always. I think you should always rehearse separately and not together. Not together. You're setting yourself up for failure, in my opinion. What say you, gentlemen and ladies?
Speaker 3:we've just had a piano for the vocalists for the vocal rehearsal. We haven't had a band, it's just just the vocals and a piano and you're working through the parts because you're right, I mean it. If it's a, it becomes a rehearsal for both the band and the choir and you as the director. Or if you have a music director and a choir director, there's going to be a lot of confusion in that rehearsal and you're really not going to get as much out of that time for either one. So I certainly agree that there's certainly a time for bringing both together, but certainly for new music. That is not the time to say that that is not the time.
Speaker 1:I want to get Renee and Ben to jump in on this CRQ. We're going to hear from them a bit later, but Renee, what's your opinion?
Speaker 5:Yeah, I agree Years ago when I was a kid in the choir in the church that I am over now. The music we did it all together. It was just like the band and it was constant. It was constant, you know. You know them trying to learn their part, the choir trying to learn their part, and it didn't work. So now we do it where the band learns their stuff and before the choir comes in, and then the choir comes in and it kind of meshes together at that point. So it makes it a little bit more doable. The band already knows that, they're already familiar with it, they know what they're doing, then the choir. It makes it go a lot quicker.
Speaker 1:Ben, you are on the musician side of Renee's comment. What's your thought?
Speaker 6:Yeah, so we actually throw in another layer to help out with this process. Yeah, so we actually throw in another layer to help out with this process. In fact, recently we had a song that we were trying to work with our musicians and it wasn't working at all. And so can pick out harmony pretty quick, and then we bring them together and then, before the choir comes in again, we bring in the soloists the week before or the week of before the choir comes in as well. So we actually have like three layers before the choir does it with the musicians together, so the soloist isn't figuring it out with music for the first time right at rehearsal as well.
Speaker 1:Right, you know there is no silver bullet to how a choir rehearsal or band rehearsal should be conducted.
Speaker 1:These are just different practices and in some cases, you know, some might consider best practices based on the context of your situation. However, I am a firm believer that the musicians, the band, should be way ahead of the choir, at least three or four songs deep, and the purpose for that is that it takes a little longer to fine tune the music, perhaps sometimes more than it does choir. And then sometimes you need the band to be so tight that they can help compensate for whatever shortfalls the vocalist might have in any of the music. And in some cases you have to have the reverse. Some cases you have to drop the band in certain parts of the song so that the choir can shine, because they have a better grip on the music themselves. Sometimes it's okay to have the musicians asking well, when are we ever going to do this song? In a service, you don't want to throw the choir under the bus and say, well, choir hasn't gotten it together yet and vice versa, you don't want to say to the choir that the band hasn't gotten it together yet. But I want to go to one more thing I want to go to the whole messy word yeah because they use the word messy to describe
Speaker 1:how the rehearsals can be, and I wonder if they are bringing the choir in too soon or they're bringing the band in too soon. You know something's happening that's causing this rehearsal to be messy Right. And then I also wonder again who's sending in the question? Is this a choir member? Is this a growing choir director? Hey, this could even be the pastor sending this question in.
Speaker 4:You know what, Greg? That's a really good question because I know what messy could look like. I've been in rehearsals that both are learning at the same time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, right.
Speaker 4:And what happens. And I don't know if it's in this case, but when you talk about messy, because that's the word we're focusing on right now I've been in rehearsals and what what tends to happen. The messy part is the the singers get frustrated with the musicians because the musicians are not prepared.
Speaker 1:Right, that'll do it. Yeah, that'll do it it.
Speaker 4:Yeah, that'll do it, and and and and. They may learn. They may not in, the singers may not, the vocals may not have it all together, but they have a little more understanding as to where these parts are supposed to go. So they're able to kind of fall in and get it done. But when musicians are something about musicians and singers, in a situation where the musicians are not prepared, when the musicians are not prepared, singers get frustrated. Um, I don't know if it's fair, I'm just saying from a singer start and start throwing, throwing right.
Speaker 4:You know, and they have you know there's commentary, they, they begin to have commentary. So I'm almost certain that those are some of the messy things that might be happening in that rehearsal. It's not necessarily that the choir, because musicians I love musicians, because even if the choir is not prepared, musicians will have their own entertainment. They will figure their own entertainment.
Speaker 1:But you see, that was where I was going to go with it.
Speaker 4:Yeah, they'll make up their own entertainment, that's a whole other problem because, then that's what frustrates choir members too.
Speaker 1:They're trying to learn parts, and not a single musician is able to sit there without tinkering Right and plucking and playing and chatting and laughing, yeah. They're just not there because they've got their part, yeah, and they're just totally tuned out from what?
Speaker 2:the choir is doing so, the drums are going, you know everything.
Speaker 4:If you really want to get me to throw something. It's something about a drummer and I love the drums I do. But it's something about a drummer when we're trying to teach the choir their parts. The drummer does something on the, the, the snare that grinds my gears. He just he would. And I had to have a friend. He knew it bothered me, he knew he and he, he was a drummer for the choir and he would just sit there and I had a have a friend. He knew it bothered me, he knew he and he, he was a drummer for the choir and he would just sit there and just and he would just do it while we're trying to teach. And and they would. I could hear them say watch me at her, watch me at her.
Speaker 4:She's going to get upset in a minute it's going to frustrate her, and so yeah, they make their own entertainment and it becomes a real.
Speaker 6:It can become messy so, greg, I think I visited you first when I was like 25 26 years old and I always wondered why I never practiced. I think I visited you first when I was like 25, 26 years old and I always wondered why the choir never practiced with the musicians, and I didn't figure it out for quite a few years. But now, looking back, I think that's why he did it Keep them separate, keep the distractions minimal.
Speaker 1:You know we did have some disciplined and seasoned musicians and you need that when you're going to bring choir and band together, separate from the musicians' rehearsal. The choir rehearsed every week, the band rehearsed every other week, and then the last week of the month the choir and band came together and so they would go over the music that the band's been covering and the choir's been covering in preparation for services.
Speaker 3:But we would come together in particular, uh, more often, for special events. Yeah, I was gonna say also during those special occasions as well. Right, it was christmas, resurrection sunday, I mean, where everybody had to be walks in and there was just but by that time everyone had practiced everything right and we were just coming to tighten up everything the official tech rehearsal yeah, yeah, but but yeah, and even in those rehearsals it could get a little.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'm sure. Yeah, because yep, and and know that choir members aren't innocent in all of this either, if you leave them alone too long they'll start their chew and chat. Chat and chew and everything else while you're working with the band. So there's definitely lots of personalities in both groups, and so, yeah, I sought the Lord.
Speaker 2:And he answered me and delivered me From every fear. Those who look on Him Are radiant. Look on him, our radiant. They'll never be ashamed. They'll never be ashamed. And this poor man cried, and the Lord heard me and saved me from my enemies. The Son of God surrounds His saints. He will deliver them. He will deliver them. He will deliver them. So, magnify the Lord with me, oh, and come, let's all his name together Together. Glorify the Lord with me and come, exalt His name forever. Oh, taste and see that the Lord is good. Oh, blessed is he who hides in me.
Speaker 1:Welcome to the choir room From the choir rehearsal of the Full Gospel Interdenominational church in Manchester, connecticut. The music director and the choir director husband and wife team, the two extra voices you heard during the CRQ, the dynamic duo Mr and Mrs Ben and Renee Westry. Thanks for joining us guys. So glad to have you here in the choir room. Hello, hello, hello, thank you for having us I think we've known each other for about what? 10, 12 years maybe, uh, longer, longer than that yeah, I think I was.
Speaker 6:Yeah, yeah, I was in my, I think, mid to late 20s when I first met you, and I'm 43 now wow, has it been that long. I mean goodness yeah, we, we went and visited a choir practice. Uh, when I was in my late 20s and brought our choir leaders at the time down with us. We had two separate choirs at the time a youth choir and an adult choir, and we came and watched how you did things.
Speaker 1:Well, I hope you didn't leave disappointed and that you felt it was worth the trip and that you were blessed to have been there. We were. I honestly didn't realize it was that long ago, but I'm glad to say that we are still friends after all these years, even with the distance between us. Ben and I are talking, you know, at least once a month, and so it's just been great to be able to maintain the friendship and the camaraderie and the fellowship over the years. We're continuing our focus on church choirs and, Ben and Renee, you've been kind enough to send us some clips from your rehearsal, and earlier in this episode we heard from three of your choir members sharing their personal experiences and why they do what they do in church choir. So let's start with the specific roles that you both have. Renee, you are the choir director. Ben, you're the band director. Renee, let's start with you. Give us the story on your role there.
Speaker 5:Hello. So, yeah, I actually work at the church. I have been there for 23 years working. I work full time and I work in the leadership role, and one of the positions that I do hold is working in the music department, and I have been in the music department at this church since I was a kid.
Speaker 5:I think I was 12 years old when I joined the choir. I was I was the youngest choir member to ever be allowed to join and so, yeah, I've been in the music ministry at my home church since then and when I was about 21, I became a leader of the youth choir and my roles have shifted and now my husband and I both do the music ministry of the church and I usually work with the singers more. I'm not a musician, so we kind of like have split roles. He handles the music side of the band side of it, I work with the singers and the like, the worship and the choir, and then we both like pastor the area you know, both together taking care of the people, watching over the people. So that's what I do.
Speaker 1:So the youngest choir member at age 12.
Speaker 5:Yeah, I was 12 years old, yeah.
Speaker 1:At age 12, you literally grew up there.
Speaker 5:I did, I did and now I am the leader of the choir leader that was over me. She's now like a retired leader, and so she I am, but now I have the roles have switched and I get to lead her and still glean from her, though you know I still. I still look at her and she's my inspiration. Awesome, I'm thankful.
Speaker 1:That's great and it's really important to make sure that there are no feelings of animosity or feelings of being pushed aside now that you're under new leadership.
Speaker 5:Yeah, yep, yep, I think so. Yeah, and it was. I mean I'm sure that I know she would love to. If she physically could, she would still be directing every song, I mean just for the time for you know, shift, and. But she's amazing and she shares lots of wisdom and she's one of the things with all of her heart. Awesome, her age it's awesome.
Speaker 1:It's wonderful that you can say that and that the two of you are still serving together in a lot of situations. That doesn't exist, and so kudos to you and to the former choir director. Let's go to Ben Ben, let's hear your side of the journey, yeah, so when I was a church boy, grew up in the church like Renee.
Speaker 6:My first service was eight days old, but didn't serve the Lord until I was really 15 years old, got saved, and one of the first things I did was I asked to join the band and I played the trumpet. And I learned in school, you know, to read sheet music, which wasn't really you know, it was classical. It wasn't church, no gospel. There was no gospel choir in the school. So I just started playing the trumpet and then over time I became the head of the youth band. Our pastor wanted to get young people playing instruments and so I was responsible for getting that group together once a month to play for the worship service. At the time we had a once a month youth meeting and so that was my responsibility. And over time I began to learn other instruments the bass, guitar, the keyboards, just trying to help out wherever I could.
Speaker 6:And when my wife and I got married it just started to be a thing where we merged the two areas together and we both had individual administrative responsibilities that eventually turned into one area, and as we got older we were transitioned into a leadership role within the church, and so I would say for the past 25, yeah, 28 years I've been a part of the music department and I frequently say to my wife, it's like I never, ever feel like it's duty to be there.
Speaker 6:Some days are harder than others when you're tired, but I love it. I can tell you by the end of every worship service I'm grateful that I was up there and serving. Watching people with their hands raised praising the Lord and seeing burdens come off people's shoulders and their lives, watch the tears stream down people's faces it makes it worth it every time. Yeah, makes it worth it every time.
Speaker 1:It is super special when you can see the impact of the music ministry on the faces and lives of the people, and to be able to do that with your spouse, I'm sure it's got to be super special. Now I know the church is interdenominational, and so tell me the dynamics of the choir in terms of culture and age. What are some of the other dynamics of the choir?
Speaker 5:So we have like a very diverse church from all different backgrounds, and so that's the first thing. Dynamics are all over the place and about four years ago we decided to dissolve the youth choir, which was like the high schoolers up, and we meshed them together. So now our big main choir is from you know, we have some 14 year olds up through 80s, you know, like so as a very cultural diversity and diverse diversity in age.
Speaker 1:Did you say the youngest is 14?
Speaker 5:Yeah, 14 years old.
Speaker 1:Yeah, oh you got to love that 14 to 80.
Speaker 1:I mean that's a super great spread and I think it's it's conducive to learning from, you know, the 14 year old, learning from the 25 year and the 25 year old, learning from the 40 year old and the 40 year old, learning from the 70 year old, and etc. I think it's a wonderful thing to have if your congregation has the ability and the dynamics to do such a thing. Yeah, it is, ben. I imagine you see some of the same dynamics amongst the band members. What are some of the other dynamics you deal with?
Speaker 6:There's so many backgrounds. It's one of our challenges actually, is picking music that resonates with each age group and each cultural background. So Renee and I frequently talk. We you know she's in it day in and day out because she's an employee of the church. I volunteer when I'm not at my regular job, so when we get home we tend to talk about this stuff, which can be good and bad some days, because some days you get frustrated with your area, right, and you want to fix things and we talk them out.
Speaker 6:But the days that we really go back and forth, a lot is discovering what music resonates with the church, and it can be a challenge because we have a group that loves what's new and fresh and we have some that are still playing Andre Grouch every day in their living room, and so choosing music that resonates with the church it's probably one of our biggest challenges. Whether we go with hymns one week, we try to find a mix of new, older, but most of all we can tell when a song, when the church likes a song. It's just a feeling you get. It. It's just so much easier to sing and we find that now that we put the lyrics on the screen if they can follow along, it makes it easier to adopt a song. That makes a big difference. So even if the music's tight, the singing's great. If they don't know the song, people tend to have some trepidation. So a lot of thought goes into just picking the right stuff for such a culturally and age diverse group.
Speaker 3:How many are in your choir?
Speaker 5:50. Okay.
Speaker 3:And did that change at all when you combine the two? I mean, did you find any folks that decided not to be a part of it anymore because of that, or were people receptive?
Speaker 5:I think I don't think it was. Yeah, I don't. I think people were very receptive. I think it had to do with the approach and the you know, when we explained the reasoning behind it and mostly the reason was just trying to not be pulled in so many different areas, especially like the band, especially, instead of having to learn like all these different small groups, it was so much easier to just say we have one choir, one band, one choir. I mean, I think the way we did it, people were very receptive to, I mean, organically, we just over time, some people, we've been trying we put a bigger focus on it, like, if you're going to be a part of this choir, like you got to learn your stuff, like we, when we, you know, we took over, we kind of, like, you know, put a little bit more emphasis and importance on you know this is ministry.
Speaker 5:You know, if you, if you are going to preach over, you know, if you were a preacher, you would prepare and you would be ready and you would pray over it. There's no different than this. It's not a hobby, it's a ministry. And when we started putting that emphasis, know, organically, we just, you know, did lose some over time. But we're definitely building back and now we're building young people like the young people are getting excited, um about it and so they see more young people up there and then, okay, now I want to be a part, now I want to be a part. So that's been a positive, that's been great. Just that's just been recently too.
Speaker 3:It's been really nice so did you bring over music from your youth choir and have and introduce it to some of the older one, I mean?
Speaker 5:so I'm sure you had to do some of that, yeah that as well in order to get everyone to buy in yeah, what we did is we took we took both, like you know, um lists of songs, you know, the ones that the adults would do, the ones with the youth to do, and we kind of just like took some from each. So so it kind of made it like, and then we did a bunch of new stuff, you know. So it was like, you know, we took. I think we took, I think when we did it this is like 10 years ago now, I think we took like 10 from each or something like that, like in our like you know library, that we would pull from 10 from each and then we just added a few more and then eventually, over time I don't know, just it's worked. It's worked really well. Actually. He'll give you everything.
Speaker 2:He'll give you everything.
Speaker 4:So magnify the Lord with me and come exalt His name. I'm intrigued by something you said you were 12 years old. This is the one church you've been serving in. I'm intrigued by something you said you were 12 years old at this one. This is the one church you've been serving in. Yes, and this would go for Ben as well.
Speaker 6:Yes, ma'am.
Speaker 4:Wow, well, that's commendable, yeah, because we rarely see that, that you serve these ministers of music and these music directors serve in that one church, because you know we have so many options to do other things in other places. So I think that is awesome. That really, really is awesome. That really really is awesome. Ben, I do have a question for you how?
Speaker 6:were you able to get the young men and women to get interested in the band, wow, ok, so we're having this discussion right now because we are seeing a need in our youngest generation to be interested in music and I think for a long time there was a lot of intimidation around not being good enough to play, because in our particular area I get really jealous of areas like around the city where they have gospel choirs and they tend to be more like. If they're in our area they tend to be inner city. Our town is a little more suburban but it's still very diverse, but we have no gospel choir in our area. They tend to be inner city. Our town is a little more suburban but it's still very diverse, but we have no gospel choir in our area in the school system. So you know we have players learning violin and cello and you know clarinet and we're not trying to play the clarinet while singing. You know I can pick from a lot of songs.
Speaker 1:I could use it. Well, you know, if it's done right, it can work. I can pick from a lot of songs. I could use it. Well, you know, if it's done right, it can work. I mean, Kirk Carr has used every instrument from accordion to clarinet.
Speaker 4:That's true. Wow, I could use it.
Speaker 6:So what we did was we kind of just said if you play an instrument, whatever it is, just join us.
Speaker 6:And what we found is, yeah, I think it's true for most age groups, but especially young people, like to be together, they want to be with their friends. And so for a while, we were doing like a separate practice, and then a group of us actually got together and formed our own band and what we would do is we would this wasn't a church sponsored event or anything like that we would just get together as friends and we would play instruments and we'd sometimes play specials in the church together. There was about eight, nine of us and we would started taking it a lot more serious, because now we were 18, 19 and we wanted to sound good and the more we, we actually started getting invited to play at other churches and from there, um, the group didn't last forever, Like most bands. Uh, they don't last forever. But as the band dissolved, um, we're all still members of the church and they absorbed into the what I would call the church sponsored band that plays week after week.
Speaker 6:So, um, and a lot of the in the in the years that I've been at the church I think this is a common theme where a group of people on their own time were just kind of jamming and gigging together at their houses and just loved music, and then they would volunteer and sign up to be in a church band, and so it was kind of natural to see them grow as young people into that area. So that's kind of what I'm working on right now. You can ask, renee, this has been probably my thing. I'm praying for the most right now. I need another generation to pick up a guitar. I need a couple keyboard players right now, because the Lord's working on me in a couple of different areas right now and it's. You know, I need some more help in my area and it would help me to move forward, but I believe God will provide. Amen, absolutely Indeed.
Speaker 1:You know, as leaders of the choir and band, both of you must have some level of administrative responsibilities. This is a twofold question. Tell us how your choir and band are administrated and then, when it comes to the final selection for songs that are going to be ministered, who makes that final decision and how is that decision made?
Speaker 6:Renee, it's administration is your gift. Why don't you start with that?
Speaker 5:Yeah, so there's a team of four of us that work on the music. Ben and I are like the head overseers, and then we have a team, a married couple, under us, that work with us. So the four of us do a lot of the administration, um kathleen, who is um the wife, she, her, and I do a lot of the paperwork and not papers, but everything um the digital stuff. We pick the songs and then we are, we upload it, we use the box as a place for all of our file sharing.
Speaker 5:Yeah, file sharing. You know we pick the song and we create the agenda and put an agenda in the box. All the choir members are connected to the box in the agenda as a link that brings them to the folder that has all the stuff in it that they need. We'll record the parts and put the parts in there if it's a more difficult song, so that they can come to the rehearsal. You know, ready to go, put MP3 in there, the chord sheet, lyric sheet, everything in there. So that's pretty much what we do for administration. We come up with, like this is what we're rehearsing, this practice, this is what we're going over, and come up with like this is what we're rehearsing this practice, this is what we're going over. And we have we like have calendars, you know, like this is what we're going to do this week, this is what we're going to do this week. You know just to, so we can be prepared for special events at backup plans, et cetera.
Speaker 6:So yeah, yeah, so I think she's um being we understand a little bit. So it's a lot more than this. So that there we, we. It sounds really simple, but I mean, this is we plan like we. It's funny we have this running joke at the beginning of the summer that in two months we have to start planning for christmas. Um, so administration is like like you have. Yeah, it's like you, you're looking for stuff. Uh, way, way far ahead, and I I think something that's really helped us is that there's. It sounds really simple, but agendas really do matter in our world For people to know what time to arrive, what song we're going to work on, the order in which we're going to do the song. It provides a certain amount of comfort for the members to know just what they got to do the song. It provides a certain amount of comfort for the members to know just what they got to do and with the file sharing, we can also look in if we are unsure. If our soloists don't know the music, we can see when they log in.
Speaker 1:So all these things really do help. Now, who does the recording and how do you do them?
Speaker 5:So usually what we'll do is we have our like leads that know that they work. They're really good at finding the parts, so, yeah, finding the harmonies, and so we'll have like a rehearsal and they'll just simply record it on their phone. We're really simple for record their part on your phone, upload it to the box and label what, who, which, which choir, which part it is, and the choir knows which part to go to to find their part. Yeah, it's pretty simple, gotcha.
Speaker 1:Well, no two rehearsals are the same. Some start with warmups, some start with a devotional, some start with a combination of the two. Some people get right into the music, the hard part of the music. Tell us how you guys conduct your rehearsals.
Speaker 5:So you know we pray together. You know we usually try to do the songs by like some faster, some slower. Give it like a little bit of, give them a few breaks in between, you know, the harder stuff, don't save it all for the end when they're tired. Or you know like kind of do stuff like that and usually we try to. If it's a newer song we will try to maybe do the harder stuff. But usually we just do like A to Z, like just go through it and try it and then stop when it gets hard, stop if there's something we need to work on. That way it kind of gives us an idea of how they're doing with it.
Speaker 1:That's just yeah, ben, I'm sure your rehearsals are different, but how did they line up with what the choir is learning so?
Speaker 6:we work on before the choir comes in. We're probably working on the song for two to three weeks if it's new. There's a lot of repeat. So when you say the term, uh, you know eight, be ready, have eight songs, be eight songs deep. I know exactly what you mean, because there are songs we've been playing for months now that we have yet to do, and for the musicians sometimes they're like we're still doing that and it's like, yeah, we're still doing that, um, but anything we try to do no more than two brand new songs, um in a in a practice, and that means just a run through.
Speaker 6:If it's the first time the choir's ever sung it, we actually play the original recording for them, um, from the artist we got it from.
Speaker 6:So before even the musicians play it, we actually sometimes feel out, do they even like this song interesting? And we play it for them and we can get a good feeling before we ever sink a lot of work in if it's even connecting with them. But it's very layered. I mentioned earlier that we arrive at 630, just the musicians and the main leaders, and then we work for half an hour to 45 minutes and then a soloist will come in and then the choir shows up usually 45 minutes into that practice. Um, and we we've discovered that if, as mieta said, if the musicians got it together, practice does not have to be two hours. Practice when I was growing up was two hours long every time, um, and it was the whole group together stumbling and bumbling through it. Now we do it where the choir comes in and works probably for 30 to 45 minutes at the most and they can go home and we get the same amount of work done.
Speaker 1:It's just it's just approach. I feel guilty because I don't do rehearsals less than two hours.
Speaker 1:But I will say this, and I say it often, that it is the choir director's responsibility that the choir leaves rehearsal saying it was good to have been there, yeah. And so, whether it's two hours or 45 minutes, you know, or an hour and a half, when people are going through the hustle and bustle of coming from work and getting to the church to give us their undivided attention, for whatever period of time that is, I think the choir director has a full responsibility to put in the work, to making sure that their time is well spent, having learned something, feeling accomplished and having enjoyed the fellowship.
Speaker 4:Ben, you said something that got my hair standing on the back of my neck. With musicians in particular, you find it sometimes helpful to pick a song and just kind of sit and listen to it from the original artist, and listen to it with the musicians, just to see if this music resonates at all, not just and I'm going to, I'm going to add to that not just spiritually, but just musically, I guess and Greg, you can help me with this word maybe musically, phonetic, phonetically. Does it make sense? Does it?
Speaker 4:Because there I know a few musicians that are have a hard time dealing or working with learning some of the music that we, we sing nowadays, and a lot of times they say things like well, that doesn't make sense musically, you know, it doesn't make sense. It doesn't make sense mus, it doesn't make sense Musical theory, theoretically, it doesn't make sense, you know. So they, they find it hard to even subscribe to learning because it doesn't make sense musically, and so I think it is an awesome thing. I never thought about it, but I'm gonna do it now. Sit with it, you know, sit with the musicians and let's listen to it first before we start to learn it. You know, kind of listen to it. That is an awesome thing. I never thought to do that, because I'm just used to throwing songs to people and say learn that we're going to get to it, just learn that.
Speaker 1:Well, I think when a musician says that it doesn't make sense. That's code for oh.
Speaker 4:I know it is it's code.
Speaker 1:I'll just leave it right there. It's cold.
Speaker 4:I get that. I do, I get that. Wow, that's amazing. I'm going to have to. I'm going to have to use that, ben, thank you.
Speaker 6:Yeah. So, greg, I wanted to back up something you had said. So we have a little bit of a different makeup with our choir. We actually have two different groups. Our choir sings one song a week and our worship team carries the bulk of the singing at this particular time. Now, me and my wife have gone back and forth with this quite a few times on how to incorporate the choir into the whole worship service, and it's one of the things that's just unique about our setting.
Speaker 6:The choir is one job for the 43 years I've been in the building has been to sing right before the preacher preaches. So they have less responsibility than our worship singers, so they don't require the same amount of time. Our worship team meets actually twice a week Sunday morning right before we actually step out, and then Thursday night we go through the a week a week of song lists. So it's a we're a little bit different than most we're. We're kind of I'm continually trying to get the choir involved into the worship service more um, but it's.
Speaker 6:We have a volunteer army, um, and our church makeup is very um. Everybody does a lot of things, um, and we've talked about this, uh, greg, a little bit um, when some of our singers are are Sunday school teachers are involved in the tech side, and so they may not even sing with us every time the choir sings, and so it creates some different challenges. But everybody is really involved in just about everything they can be involved in, but it creates some different hurdles and challenges for us as well. Hopefully that makes sense.
Speaker 1:Sure. Well, let me speak to each of those points briefly. The choir needs to understand that even though they may not be leading the song service, they are still an intricate part of the worship experience. Sometimes the congregation only needs to see them engaged in worship and that encourages the congregation to enter in. Again, the choir needs to remember that they have a threefold ministry, if you will, during the context of the worship service and in the words of Dr James Mabson, he says that the choir ministers to God with the people, ministers to God for the people and then ministers to the people, and that's typically the case during the typical worship service. So the choir needs to understand the fact that, even though they're not leading the worship service at that moment, they are participating. They are encouraging the worship team, they're encouraging themselves, because the worship at that point is still unto God with the people.
Speaker 1:I think we get into a dangerous situation when the choir feels that they're only effective or they're only doing ministry when they are singing a choir special. So let's make sure that they understand that that's not the case. And then the second thing is and this may sound a little direct, but let me complete the thought is that people will make time for what they want to do. If it's a ball game, we'll make time. If it's shopping, we'll make time. If it's surfing the internet, we'll make time. If it's just sitting around the dinner table at a restaurant, we make time for what we want to do, and I think it is the same when it comes to the house of God. We have to choose to make time for what we want to do. So for those who want to be in the choir and feel like they're called to the ministry of music, then they make the time to do that. Now I'm not saying that the sacrifice of your family or your marriage or your job or your health or even your finances, but there is some sacrifice in that I'm going to give an hour to rehearsal or I'm going to give two hours a week to rehearsal, whether that's at the church or whether that's an hour in my own time and an hour at the church. We make the time for what we want to do.
Speaker 1:Now I said that first because if the choir then is going to be more involved in the worship service on Sunday and that they're singing more songs, there's the what we call the sermonic selection before the sermon and sometimes the offertory song, which is the offering before the sermon, before the sermonic selection. So sometimes that's at least two songs that the choir is preparing each week. That may require more time in terms of rehearsal. So the choir and the band for that matter, will have to understand that it may require just a little more time in rehearsal in order to prepare enough songs to have in our arsenal to sing at any point during the service on Sunday, whether that's an offertory song and the, if you will, sermonic selection. That's at least two songs that happen in the service. That can't always be predetermined, because when it is, then there really is no flow and we've all experienced no flow in the service before because we've sang the wrong song at the wrong time. And then finally and I totally understand this choir members who are involved in various areas of ministry. You've got volunteers, but they are Sunday school teachers, some of them are youth leaders, some of them are elders, et cetera.
Speaker 1:At some point it may be necessary to ask choir members to commit to just being involved in choir. Now, I know that's a tricky proposition and not every choir or not every church can even do this. But if the music ministry is growing and you're trying to grow it. You may be approaching the time or at the time where you have to ask choir members to commit to just this, so that you don't sacrifice your marriages or your relationship with your children or you don't sacrifice too much more of your time or your health because they're pulled in so many different areas. You'll know just from sitting in rehearsal how many people are actually rehearsing outside of rehearsal and that is often an indicator or an indication of how much time people actually have to commit to the music ministry. And that's a big pill to swallow when you're asking people for more time to one area of ministry and reconsidering the other one. I know teachers who are teachers at heart will want to do both.
Speaker 1:People who are involved in other areas of ministry may be doing it because family did it or because there's a need, and in the church we know that people will say yes oftentimes say yes because they see a need. It's a genuine yes, but then life catches up to them and they realize they've overextended themselves. So with music ministry it's such a huge responsibility and such a huge commitment, even though two hours of your week seems like nothing compared to how much time we would spend watching television or sitting at a ball game, but it is a huge responsibility nonetheless. And it may seem to them like you're asking them for an arm or a leg, but if they stop to seriously consider how much of their time during the week went to other things, this is unto the Lord. This is the music ministry. It is a huge part of the worship experience and I think this is an okay request. And you'll know where the yeas are and the nays are, and I don't think anybody should feel condemned if they feel like they can't give you an extra hour or an extra 30 minutes a week, and you shouldn't feel condemned by asking for that.
Speaker 1:So let me summarize this long reply to your comments. One, the choir is more involved in the worship service than they probably realize. However, if they're going to start singing more choir songs during the worship service, that may require more rehearsals and may require more learning, because you have to have more songs in your repertoire to be able to pull out at any moment that is suitable for that service. And then, thirdly, with that, that may require more rehearsal time, whether that's more rehearsal time during the week or asking them to commit more rehearsal time personally, so that when they do come to rehearsal they have learned the material. Don't you go back and say, greg Thomas, you should be committing more time to the house.
Speaker 6:I got it recorded, man, it's recorded.
Speaker 4:Do you, do you see in the future the choir participating more in the worship service other than just the sermonic selection, if you will?
Speaker 5:than just the sermonic selection, if you will. I can definitely see that could happen, where we would maybe sing more than one song before the message. I think we'd have to have some restructuring in our services and the way we do things to be able to accommodate them being up there the whole time. As far as, like, say, we open up up the service and they were, they were up on the platform, we wouldn't be able to necessarily do that at this time doesn't mean that would never happen. The our church loves the choir, so if we ever did that, I know that it would just like be amazing.
Speaker 5:The choir is a we're a great team and have great camaraderie, so if we were able to one day do that, that would be amazing. But, um, definitely singing, you know, we could definitely probably add to what we're doing. We used to do the choir used to sing on sunday morning, sunday nights and wednesday nights. We have three services a week and the choir used to do more singing. Um, but we kind of like cut back on some things on Wednesday nights and cut back on Sunday nights. Not because of the choir is just like restructuring our services. So it ended up being where the choir just does the one song before the message, but definitely we could grow that.
Speaker 1:So the song before the sermon, which again is often referred to as the sermonic selection, and ironically in a lot of churches that song has nothing to do with the sermon. But does the pastor or whoever is speaking ever tell you what they're preaching so that your song lines up with that message?
Speaker 5:I wish. No, they don't. I mean very, very rarely does that ever happen. That usually it, you know, organically, the Lord just does it. I mean I'm not saying it's, it's. We've failed and ever sung something that was totally off. I think you know spirit of God, you know you prayerfully pick and you choose your selection. But those times it does line up perfectly. It's like yeah but no but um no, nobody tells us.
Speaker 1:I see, all the more reason to have several songs in your arsenal ready to go. So yeah, they'd say well, this is what I'm preaching. I'd like you to find a song, or sometimes the. The pastor will say, hey, here's the song I'd like you to do yeah, and that's fine. I mean we are under authority.
Speaker 1:We're taking that and we're going to do it to the best of our ability. But then there are other times when pastor just trusts the music ministry and that's really where you want to be. You want that kind of relationship where they trust the spirit in you, of relationship where they trust the spirit in you, trust that you're not going to come with something totally disconnected.
Speaker 4:Uh, and that you're hearing from god as well? Yeah, I'm gonna. I promise this is well, here's my comic relief, right? So, um, has there ever been a time where the song that you picked for the sermonic selection just totally bombed?
Speaker 5:that is, wait a minute, renee made it hard to preach because I've been there, I know that happens, like I wish I, I wish I could say no, but yeah, yeah yeah, see, we don't often tell the truth about that. We don't, we don't it has happened, oh, and you go to your seat and you're like, oh my gosh thank you for sharing, renee.
Speaker 4:I appreciate that.
Speaker 1:No, getting that one back.
Speaker 5:No no.
Speaker 6:So Renee probably doesn't even want me to bring this up, but we had a, she had an, we all had an experience. I heard how old were we. Renee, keep me near the cross.
Speaker 5:Remember that when we sang that song reminding me, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 6:The thing about it is we were so young and there was so much to learn on our end that when it didn't work, we really blamed ourselves for it and learned a lot. What we found is it's very common for ministry to be so disconnected from leadership at times, and so what we've learned over the years is that we we're not operating outside of, you know, on our own, but we really need to collaborate more to the best we can and to be in tune with what's happening in the church, and it just makes life a lot easier when we're all on the same page. We're not mind. Readers praise the Lord. So any direction always helps, but you know, ministry is together.
Speaker 6:It's not everybody operating in their silos, but we should connect.
Speaker 1:That is the perfect closer to this podcast. Ben Renee, thanks for joining us, mietta and Dorian, as usual. And to our listeners remember to subscribe, like and share. And then finally remember, if we ever put the messenger before the message, we have failed to present an unblemished gospel. I'm Greg Thomas. Join us again next time here in the Choir Room.
