The Choir Room Podcast
This podcast exists to promote and encourage two long-time traditions in our society that seem to be dwindling…The Choir and Corporate Singing. We hope to revive the excitement and joy experienced with singing in a choir, as well as inform and educate the listener on all things singing, and all things choir related.
A weekly podcast featuring discussion and interviews with choir directors, choir members, and other guests representing church choirs, college and university choirs, community choirs, show and theatre choirs, composer of choir music, and other.
Segments include tips and instruction from skilled and professional disciplines within the choir community covering topics such as choir culture and community, choir directing, vocal training, ear training, sight reading, and more. A monthly virtual live audience episode allows the listener to engage with hosts and guests during instructional and Q&A segments via the live recording, chat, email, on various social media platforms.
A production of Metromusic & Arts, Inc.
- www.metromusic-arts.com
- thechoirroom@metromusic-arts.com
- mail@mmertomusic-arts.cm
The Choir Room Podcast
Embracing the New Year with Gospel Choirs: The Legacy of Hymns, Dr. Scott Cumberbatch's Life Story, and Navigating Choir Music in the Digital World
Embark on a spiritual odyssey with us as we ring in the new year with a heartfelt celebration of choir and corporate singing, brought to life by the collective genius of Greg Tomas, Doria Johnson, Mietta Stancil Farrar, and Dr. Scott Cumberbatch. We promise a journey into the theological tapestry of Charles Wesley's iconic hymn "And Can It Be That I Should Gain?" and an intimate look into the transformative power of gospel choir music in communal worship settings.
Dr. Scott Cumberbatch joins us in the Choir Room to share his extraordinary life story, weaving through the chords of music and ministry influenced by early childhood experiences and his mother's role as a minister of music. His eclectic journey from acting to teaching, and directing choirs, illustrates the profound impact of musical talent and dedication across various spheres. Meanwhile, our discussion transcends mere performance, delving into the responsibilities of music leadership and the profound connection between a choir's voice and the congregation's spirit.
The digital age may have altered our approach to finding and selecting gospel music, but the essence of choral ministry remains unchanged. As we navigate the vast online world for gospel choir music, we emphasize the importance of authenticity and the power of songs that speak to the soul. Whether it's through unearthing hidden gems or embracing the influence of independent artists, we highlight the significance of bringing true gospel messages to life, inspiring choirs to be pioneers in a continuously evolving musical landscape.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwiku8Lc-5KEAxUTmIkEHfSDCUIQFnoECCQQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fchannel%2FUCDniA77EicNy3S_FQija5Ow&usg=AOvVaw0LJT0wJ-W6cZhVNFUtCqhZ&opi=89978449
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwiku8Lc-5KEAxUTmIkEHfSDCUIQFnoECBoQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fmusic.apple.com%2Fus%2Falbum%2Fhymns-from-the-heart%2F1163235681&usg=AOvVaw3Vbi_2V-cPd8859waEcS94&opi=89978449
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwiku8Lc-5KEAxUTmIkEHfSDCUIQFnoECCEQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fopen.spotify.com%2Falbum%2F1ddkMzUxBLVTHT4X6vKmqO&usg=AOvVaw2j1t6i1MS442UgQrqD109s&opi=89978449
Perpetuating and Promoting the Christian and Positive Idea Through the Medium of Music and Other Arts.
Welcome to the choir room. This is episode 34 and 2024. Welcome to the choir room. Here in the Choir Room Podcast, I'm Greg Tomas, your host, and I'm joined by my co-host. Welcome to the choir room Doria Johnson and Mieta Stansofarrar, along with our guest contributor today, gifted musician, singer, songwriter, composer and choir director, dr Scott Cumberbatch. So here we are in the first episode of 2024.
Speaker 2:This is episode 34 and we're excited about some of the changes that are coming in this podcast and some of the programs and services that will be coming through Metro Music and Arts.
Speaker 2:Now, if you didn't listen to last week's podcast, episode 33, make sure you go check that out so you get more information about that.
Speaker 2:Now we take a moment to remind our regular listeners and those of you who are tuning in for the first time, that this podcast exists to promote and encourage two longtime traditions in our society that seem to be dwindling away, and that is choir and corporate singing, and we hope to revive the excitement and joy experienced with singing in a choir, as well as inform and educate the listener on all things singing and all things choir.
Speaker 2:This podcast is a production of Metro Music and Arts, whose purpose is to perpetuate and promote the Christian and positive idea through the medium of music and other arts. Now, here in the choir room, we need you to do us a favor, if you haven't done so already. We ask you to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts and then give us a thumbs up Along with your comments and suggestions. We certainly welcome them and many of them are going to be implemented in this new year. Engage in the conversation in the choir room Facebook page and then, finally, share with your choir friends, your choir directors, your choir musicians, that you're in the choir room.
Speaker 3:Welcome to the choir room.
Speaker 2:Here's Dorian with the Hymn of the Week.
Speaker 3:Thank you, greg. Once again we are returning to our Hymn of the Week, and this week's Hymn of the Week is a question. The question is and can it be that I should gain? This hymn was written by Charles Wesley upon his conversion in 1738 and was one of the first of over 6,500 hymns that he has credited with writing, and we will indeed visit a number of his hymns in the coming weeks. The title of the hymn when it was officially published was Free Grace and extensively draws from Scripture to describe the wonders of the great salvation that he was granted through the life, death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ. And the hymn begins with the question that is the title of the hymn and can it be that I should gain an interest in the Savior's blood? And the question is should I gain from the Savior's shed blood? And then the second line of the first verse says Did he for me? Who caused his pain, again acknowledging that the very one who caused the pain for this Savior was the one for whom the Savior died. And then he goes even further and says For me who him to death pursued? So not only did we cause Christ's death, but we pursued him to the very death that brought us salvation. And then the final two lines of this first verse are the famous refrain of this hymn, which says Amazing love, how can it be that thou, my God, should die for me? First, john, 4, 9 through 10, says in this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only son into the world so that we might live through him. And this is love, not that we have loved God, but that he loved us and sent his son to be the propitiation or the satisfaction of God's wrath for our sins.
Speaker 3:The second verse points us to the mystery of the incarnation of Christ. It says Tis mystery. All the immortal dies. Who can explore his strange design? When we think of the fact that Christ, the eternal Son of God, the second person of the Trinity, the one through whom all things were created, that he took upon himself a human nature and went to the cross and died in a physical death, it is very strange. And it's the mystery of our salvation. And and Wesley goes on and says in the second verse in vain, the firstborn Sarah tries to sound the depths of love divine. What love for the eternal Son of God to set aside the glories of heaven and to come and humbly walk as a man, and then to go and to die the death of a vile criminal. Tis mercy all. Let earth adore, let angel minds inquire no more.
Speaker 3:Verse three points to Christ's humiliation. He left his father strone above, so free, so infinite his grace. And then some renderings of the hymn say emptied himself of all but love and blood for Adam's helpless race. The version that I typically sing says this humbled himself, so great his love and blood for all his chosen race. Because, indeed, while Christ did take upon himself a human nature, he never stopped being God. He was fully God and fully man, and so, even as he walked upon this earth, he was still the one who was keeping all of the planets and the stars in orbit. He was the one possessing all of the attributes of divinity and yet humbling himself to the point of experiencing the limitations of a man. And he went to the cross and died for his people. Verse three ends tis mercy all immense and free for, oh my God, it found out me.
Speaker 3:Verse four Wesley alludes to various scenes in the New Testament where apostles were freed from prison and likened it to his own liberation from sin. Verse four says long, my imprisoned spirit lay fast bound in sin. And nature's night, thine eye, diffused a quickening ray. I woke the dungeon flame with light. My chains fell off, my heart was free, my rose went forth and followed thee. We remember the Apostle Peter when he was miraculously freed from prison. We remember Paul and Silas in the midnight hour singing and praising God and the earthquake opening that prison for them. And we who have experienced the salvation of God know what it means to be freed from the penalty and the power of sin.
Speaker 3:And as we end this hymn, we see the joyous strains of those who are in Christ when he says no condemnation. Now, I dread Jesus and all in him is mine, alive in him, my living head, and clothed in righteousness. Divine, bold, I approach the eternal throne and claim the crown through Christ my own. Romans eight one tells us that there is now, there's therefore now, no condemnation for those who are in Christ. Jesus and Hebrews four. Sixteen tells us that we can draw near to the throne of grace in confidence, seeking and receiving mercy and grace to help in time of need. Indeed, this hymn, which is written about the testimony of the conversion and all that God did for this man, in saving him is the testimony of every Christian, and as he exclaims in the chorus, so we should as well. Amazing love, how can it be that thou, my God, should die for me?
Speaker 2:And our guest contributor for today, dr Scott Cumberbatch. My dear friend, thank you for your yes.
Speaker 4:Grateful for the invitation. Always glad to be a part of conversation with you, sir.
Speaker 2:And the feeling is mutual. We've received two or three emails over the past year wondering when are you going?
Speaker 2:to have Scott on. When are you going to have Scott on? And so we're glad to finally get you here on the podcast and, well, hold you while we got you to participate in the CRQ. Ok, now, some of our listeners will know who you are, but a good number of them won't, and so let's take a few moments to enlighten them on who the Scott Cumberbatch that we know actually is. And, of course, we have a history together from the same community, from the same circle of friends and same circle of colleagues and ministry. So why don't you tell our listeners when and how it started for you in music and choir and in some of the other areas of the arts that you've been involved in?
Speaker 4:So my days of music go all the way back to my childhood, and while it might not seem that long ago, it was 30 plus years ago, 34 years ago actually. My mother has been a musician and minister of music for my church for over 60 years. So I sat alongside her and witnessed what she was doing. But outside of the church realm, I was an actor, and being a professional actor took me not only to the stage as an actor but also brought me in front of people as a singer, as a musician, working with larger companies dealing with music, specifically on Broadway stages, and even doing voiceovers musically, specifically the Kraft macaroni and cheese, the blue box blues as we called it. One of the kids that sang on that. I did the Hestra commercial singing background for three seasons. For that I did Burger King. I sang on that.
Speaker 4:So music has always been a part of my life, and so for my formative years, though, I didn't do any formal music lessons much too many people should grant, including my mom. She put me a lesson for one year. It didn't last because I was bored out of my mind and I think the end all be all was me getting to. This was at the age of three but me getting to the final concert and they handed me a triangle to play After she paid more than $2,000 for me to take piano lessons. They put me on the stage to play a triangle and I was fit to be tied, so I literally did not want to do anything else.
Speaker 4:When it came to that, I was not knowing what God had planned for me, not knowing that I would sit down at the piano one night while she was working night school at the high school where she worked where I currently work at and sit down to start playing. And my grandfather heard me and I didn't know anything different. I just sat down and started playing and he told her the next morning like before you go to work, you got to hear this boy play. And she's like, yeah, okay. And she comes out of the bathroom and I'm playing. Jesus loves me on the piano. And what happens to still be my favorite key, f sharp.
Speaker 2:And I'm playing it so funny because that's the same key I started in Steve.
Speaker 4:And, but it wasn't literally just playing like one note.
Speaker 4:I was actually playing a little chord here and there. Um, and See, we talked about it, um, we've talked about it many times before where it just seemed like this was something that god had ordained. And I truly believe that. I truly believe that he has ordained me to do everything that I've done, um, from education to um the, the degrees that I've gotten, to all the people that I've been able to work with, um in music as well as in acting, as well as in education Uh, literally, god has ordained all of it to happen and I take none of it for granted, um, but I'm thankful for all of it and I truly try to take all of the experiences that I've had over these last 38 years, um, and put that into everything that I do every time I sit in an instrument, every time I stand in front of a choir, every time I sit at my desk as an administrator in education, um, even when I was standing in front of my class teaching English and, yes, I'm in English I was an English teacher, not a music teacher.
Speaker 2:Well, I was gonna let you say that a lot of people who hear dr Scott tumberbatch assumed on this podcast that you taught music.
Speaker 4:That.
Speaker 2:I taught music right, and though you were an English teacher and still am, you were still a music teacher and still are, even though you weren't one officially with the School system.
Speaker 4:Yes, I was an English teacher with a piano in my classroom.
Speaker 2:Well, there you go Always in my classroom. You weren't an unofficial music instructor at uh at the school. Because even the students knew you from the community. They knew of you Uh they heard you, they, they, they would hear you in school when I guess you would play on your break. You had a piano there, so it had to be used.
Speaker 4:Exactly, and also was the advisor for the gospel choir. There was music going on in my classroom at all times, I bet.
Speaker 2:Let's talk a little bit about the acting. I saw you in bad boys. Uh, tell us how that transpired. Bad boys one and two yeah, so, yeah. So you had a little role there, uh, and it wasn't musical.
Speaker 4:No, it was, it rolled nonetheless. Yes, sir, I played uh martin son in both of those martin's oldest.
Speaker 2:Now, when you consider all of these opportunities the acting, the teaching, the Uh community choir, the church choir, all of the other things that you've done though these disciplines are Significantly different from each other, how do you see them, having come together and have taught you lessons that still carry with the scott that we know?
Speaker 4:From beginning to end, um. I will say that it taught me dedication, um, not to just say I'm gonna do something, but to actually follow through what I'm going to do. Um. It gave me a different level of professionalism in that, um, I take everything that I do seriously and I truly make sure that everybody that I work with they understand that if you ask me to do something, I'm going to do it to the best of my ability. If I can't do it like you want right now, give me a few minutes and I'll get it to where it needs to be. Um. It also taught me all of the experiences taught me accountability To know that whether I'm the person that's performing or if I'm the person that's leading, or both at the same time, I'm always going to be accountable for my actions. And if I'm responsible for leading others, I'm going to make sure that they understand what accountability is to.
Speaker 4:We can't give 50 percent. We got to give 100 at all times. If you're unable to give 100, at least be honorable enough to step up and say I can't do that, um, and maybe you want to find someone else. There's no love lost. But again, it shows that there needs to be accountability, um, even with dealing with my choirs now, uh, whether it be the church choir, my state choir, my home church choir, the choir that I just formed and recorded with, whatever the case is, um, the first thing that it always starts with is prayer To understand that we need to bring our minds and our hearts together and that we've only got one mission, and that mission is to minister to god and to his people. Um, it's his job to speak through us, to sing through us and all that stuff. We just got to be willing at open vessels, um, and the experiences that I had, uh, with broadway.
Speaker 4:I think that really gave me the understanding of taking care of my instrument, um, and not just the one that I play, but even in my voice and my uh vocal folds and all of that Taking care of them, not over exerting myself, making sure that I understand what rest is, um, I'm not just going to sleep at night, but actually just resting, not talking, and not over working. Um, um, making sure that I'm properly hydrated, um, so all of these things help to play a major role into what I've become, um, and I still sit back sometimes and think about some of the things that I learned that I don't always implement Um and say, okay, I need to make this change, you need to make that change. Ever growing and revolving.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and we don't ever grow or evolve without the help of others. There are people who have influenced you in your professional career, in your your music and ministry career. Tell us a bit about those influences and influencers.
Speaker 4:Well, I laugh about it. Um, I'll start with the acting that I go to the music. So the acting side, that kind of just happened. Um, that one year that I was in the music program I was the yamaha music program. Um, here in new jerry, in parameters, new jersey.
Speaker 4:Um, there was a young man that was an actor. He actually was on the show who's the boss? Um, he was adopted later on and if you ever watched the cosby show Um, his name was jonathan and he had the froggy voice that dr Cosby only used to make fun of Um, he and I went to piano lessons together and his mother said to my mother your kid's got a great personality, I think that he should really try out for this. And my mother's like, yeah, right, of course, the stories that we all heard were Gary Coleman and the different strokes, kids and all the stuff they went through and how they went left and it could have gone right. And so she was like, yeah, I'm not gonna do that. And my godmother was the one that convinced her to let me do that. So when it came to that, literally it was just kind of like, okay, I auditioned for a role, I saw what they wanted and just gave them what they asked for, to the best of my ability.
Speaker 4:And 14 and a half years I did commercials, I did movies, I did Broadway, I did a couple of actors, equity workshops, I did, like I said, the voiceovers. So it was literally just again, god's hand in all of it, because I didn't take any formal acting lessons either. I just I'm that personality. I guess I tried not to be a chameleon, but if I have to be, I will be. To a certain extent I'm not giving up my values to get a role.
Speaker 4:When it came to music, it, like I said, it starts right at home. My mother, I sat next to her and was plunking here and there on the piano and she would hit my hand don't do that and teaching me here and there. And then it went from me playing one hand to two hands and then moving over just a little bit more and she ended up directing the choir, now not playing anymore, and I'm playing for the choir and now she's in a state of fully retired and doesn't want to play at all. But she does play for lack of a better word sporadically she does play still.
Speaker 2:Well, you know, for you to be playing and her to be directing, that had to be the dynamic duo.
Speaker 4:And then one of the church decided to buy an organ. Then she was on the piano, I was on the organ, so we were able to do that. At one point I had my keyboards at the church. So, yeah, it was yeah for a good 15 years. That was prophetic. That was what we did at the church.
Speaker 4:And then also I had another young lady who has now passed away, but she was the minister of music at the time of Ebenezer Baptist in Englewood, margaret Gales. It was because of her that my music went a little bit further. She heard me playing at a service and was like, yeah, I need him to come and play for the church, because she wanted me to play for the youth choir Youth choirs, because that church actually had three youth choirs, different ages and so I went in with her and she was the one that really forced me into learning to read music. When I was in grammar school I took on the alto saxophone for a hot spell and of course with that you had to read music, and so I was doing a little bit here and there. But she came to me, we were preparing for Easter and she decided that she was going to do. Surely he has born our grief from the Messiah. And she said now, I played it for the last couple of years, you're playing it this year. And I was like, no, I'm not. She said, yes, you are. I said it, here's the music. As you walked away and I'm like, oh Lord, I have two months to prepare. And, of course, looking for anybody that's never looked at sheet music before or never looked at that kind of sheet music before, it was like trying to read trigonometry and I'm like I don't know what this is. And then when I flipped the page, I was like, okay, I just went from math to Greek, I really don't know what this is. And so it literally little by little, little by little, I was taking it and I learned it, and then it pushed me into learning to sight read even more and focusing on that. So she was a major influence there.
Speaker 4:Of course, robin Edward Fairley was another major influence that both of us share and, again, I don't really talk about it often but, greg, even you were a major influence, because I sat back and I watched and I listened to what you did. For those of you that have never heard him play, for those that are listening to this, he was Patterson's Richard Smallwood. To me, smallwood was always one of my icons from afar that I listened to. Smallwood, hawkins, crouch, james, cleveland, those were like the four major people. But when you sat down, greg, at a piano and just played, literally I heard Richard Smallwood right in front of me and so I paid attention to that. I listened to a lot of what you did. I listened to what you did with vocals and how you would arrange different things, some of the writing that you did, and it became a major part of my thinking in the way that I started even composing.
Speaker 4:Another person is Michael Butler and, for a little bit, his dad, pastor William Butler, the late Pastor William Butler. But Mike was the reason that I started writing. He said to me when I started playing for the William Patterson Gospel Choir he was like there's composition in you. And I was like, yeah, no, I'm an English major and I'll be okay with that. I can write lyrics. I'm not trying to write any music, I'll play everybody else's music, I'm good with that. He was like, no, there's something else in you. And he didn't know that he was speaking in something into existence, because literally a year later I'm sitting in my car on campus waiting for class to start and this song just starts playing in my head and I was like I gotta write this down.
Speaker 4:I grabbed my notebook out of the back of the truck and I'm writing stuff down. I was like I gotta get to a practice room and I ran to one of the practice rooms in Shea and the very first song, which is now a GIA published song, frazier the Lord, was the very first song that I wrote in 2005. And I played it back for him and he was like, dude, we gotta sing this, we gotta do it. And I played it for the musicians and they were like we gotta do it. I was like, really, is that good? And they were like, yeah, we gotta do it, we gotta do it. Praise the Lord. Praise the Lord.
Speaker 1:And his name is Shea. Praise the Lord, praise the Lord. And his name is Shea. Praise the Lord, praise the Lord. And his name is Shea.
Speaker 4:Praise the Lord, praise the Lord, and his name is Shea. Praise the Lord, praise the Lord and his name is Shea. And the choir fell in love with it, he fell in love with it, and so I was just yeah. And then, when it came to the organ itself, elder Terrence Kitchen's has been one of my major influences, because the Hammond is not, it's not for the week, and so listening to him and listening to Miyaida's late stepmother, elder Deborah Burgess, there's so many Elder Ray Hageans, there's so many people that came through this city when it came to playing traditional gospel, professor Lloyd Rees, that was the man to listen to, to get that traditional sound, to know where to go, what to do with it. Yeah, so those were my hands-on influences. That's awesome.
Speaker 2:So we've kind of drawn from the same well in terms of that pool of people and all of them, you know, and so many of them I wish were still here, because I think this generation, this generation has no idea what they're missing by not having them. They don't know they don't know what, what a choir is capable of. Ricky Burgess is standing in front of them. Gloria Ose is standing in front of them. You know, they just don't, they don't understand.
Speaker 2:And that doesn't mean we don't have great ones today. I just think that we are in time and season and this generation where the emphasis is more about the individual and less about the collective, and so the full potential of what a choir or singing aggregation can be, is being lost, dorian.
Speaker 3:Scott, thank you so much for being with us. It's interesting because, having worked with Greg, I heard sort of the same story of a young kid sitting down at a piano and just starting to play. And then you got, you had the same, the same story, and I and I know there are many people out there that hear that and go oh, I want to do that. I just want to sit down and start playing. One day you gotta go to church. Some of them do.
Speaker 3:Believe me there's one right here saying I wish I could just sit down and start playing. But I guess my question for you is yes, and I believe God does give gifts to his people, but what has what, then, did you have to do in terms of working on that gift that you were given? And then I guess my second part of the question is I did have the opportunity to hear the ensemble that you led at the at the choir anniversary that you had invited us to. I have to say it was at six people that were in that ensemble.
Speaker 4:And Dave.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I only had like five or six that day, yeah, and let me tell you, when they opened their mouth, I don't have any hair and my hair flew back. And so and you, you talked about just not feeling as if that was a place you wanted to go either. And so can you just talk to us a little bit about how you went to developing your gift, whether it was playing piano, whether it was leading the, leading a choir, and getting the most out of people, even if they don't necessarily think that they have any more to give? Can you talk a little bit about that as well?
Speaker 4:Sure, Thank you For playing. It was literally just just keep doing it, just keep playing, and that's all I've ever done. I'm not that one that sits down at the piano or the organ and practices four and five hours a day. I've never been that person. Not that I'm not dedicated to it, but because of how keen my ear has always been and then, of course, reading music helped to develop that even the more I was able to just sit down and, for lack of a better, figure it out and make it make sense, make the chords what I heard. I literally played what I heard and even now I still play what I hear, trying not to take away from what the artistry is, as well as remembering that I'm the accompanist to the choir. I'm not overplaying them. I'm always going to live underneath where the choir is singing or where the soul was to singing.
Speaker 4:As a director and, uh yeah, a choir director and leader, it literally came from watching what others have done. Um, and I'm also a part of um, our national association with, from which I am the um, the minister of music now for the national association church of God, and I also am a part of the national commensin of gospel choirs and choruses. So being in and Hampton, uh, hampton university ministers conference at Oregon is skilled as well. So being in those spaces with others who were doing the same thing, um, I literally have just taken what other people have done and, as the old adage is, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. So I've just emulated what I've seen others do. Um, with a heart for the people, with a heart for the purpose of what it is that we do, and making sure, again, that it's all glorifying God.
Speaker 4:Um, choirs can be very difficult to deal with because you deal with multiple personalities simultaneously, um, and that's the church choir, the community choir, the ensemble, the quartet, the tree, whatever. When there's more than one person and more than one personality, you're always going to deal with issues. I do my best to be that person to help to solve the problems. I like solutions more than I like problems created. Um, because problems created just open up the door for more issues to come down the pipe.
Speaker 4:Um, but I started leading all of my choirs with the premise of okay, remember what Lucifer 's job was and remember who he thought he was. We are not going to be that group of people that says turn me up and my turn my mic up. I can't hear myself in the mix, but we are going to be doing this, as Psalm 133 says. Behold how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to do out together in unity. If we can't be unified, then we can't do this, because then it's going to be a horrific mess. Um, but we all have to be on the same page, understanding that we're serving and singing for the same God, for the same purpose. It's not about the awards, it's not about the accolades, it's not about the money. It's not about any of that. It's about pleasing God.
Speaker 2:Yeah, let's lead the church choir for a moment and go to the college choir, because you've had an opportunity to um, to work with the college choir as well, uh, college gospel choir, and I think sometimes we we are winning more people than we realize, because not always in a gospel choir at the school is everybody that's involved in that choir Maybe necessarily a Christian. Some people just love gospel music and um, but you're winning more people sometimes than you realize. Very true, Talk to us a little bit about the difference in approach from church choir and college choir. Even though they're both gospel choirs, the approach can oftentimes, uh, be different. What was your experience?
Speaker 4:So, working with that choir, working with that choir? Um, like I said, when I went to Wayne Patterson, michael Butler was the person over the choir, um, and he made me the musical director. So I was working with the band. Um, thankfully, all of the musicians that we were working with at the time were um church kids. Um, in fact, my drummer, his father was a pastor, so literally I got a PK, another church kid from um that was on saxophone, from Alabama, the bass player was a church kid right from Patterson. So we we had that commonality with those that were coming in to take the class for credit, because it wasn't actual course, it was a three credit course.
Speaker 4:Um, we would often you don't see that often, no, and believe it or not, the course was discontinued about 10 years ago. They're trying to revamp it and bring it back now, um, and so they're trying to bring both of us back to work with it. I'm like, hey, that'll work, um, but with that, one thing that um Mike did and I was always up for was, not only did we have the time of, okay, let's learn, learn, learn, let's learn these songs, let's get ready for concerts, but he would do those midnight sessions and say, okay, we have rehearsal from seven to nine 40 on Sunday, but now we're going to have just a powwow, we're going to sit and we're going to talk, um, just to kind of see where people were, especially for those that were coming in, just for credit. You could say, if you wanted to, you didn't have to. 99% of the time people stayed because they wanted to know what was going on, because now it was more about becoming a family and a unit than it was just about getting up and singing music. And one thing that he did that I actually have started to take the other choir is we did a retreat every year, and that retreat was funded by the school. We would go off campus to a space up in the Poconos for three or four days, um, learning about the music, but then again just having those sessions where we could just sit and rap, those fireside chats, those midnight chats, um, with no TVs. The place that we went to was a resort, um, that had no TVs. It had all the food we needed, had the beds that we needed, um, and they took care of us, um, we were able to minister to a whole lot of people.
Speaker 4:I mean, you had people that came in, one young lady who now is one of my dearest friends, um, she came in and she was like I came from church but I also came from the streets, and coming from the streets, like she was ready to rap and do all of this stuff. She was a vocal major, a classical vocal major, um, and since was rough. Now, I mean, we're talking about thanks to the relationship that relationships that she built through the choir. We're talking about somebody that's an ordained minister in the church. Her voice is absolutely phenomenal. She is a recording artist now. So it's all of these things catapulted from her being connected to the William Patterson gospel choir. Um, so, in seeing Mike do that, I took that when I went to arts and, like I said, I was the advisor for the gospel choir there, um, and of course, in the school setting, thankfully, I had three principals, um, that were all believers and they pretty much gave me freedom to do what we needed to do, so they didn't restrict us from oh, you can't say Jesus.
Speaker 4:They were fine, um, and they would deal with whatever they whatever backlash came. Most of the time, nothing that came of it anyway, um, but they knew that there was a family unit that was being created with that Um, and I would talk to the kids like, listen, just because I'm a gospel choir advisor, even if you never have me as a teacher, my door is always open to you. Come, sit, talk to me, um. Who I didn't talk to about suicide? Who I didn't talk to about academic success? Who I didn't talk to about, um, even future plans? Who I didn't talk to about teen pregnancy? I mean, I had a couple of kids that got pregnant while they were in high school and I said to them this is not the end, this doesn't have to be the end for you. You can still go and grow and you can still do more, um. And to this day, I've been gone from arts now for five years, um.
Speaker 4:But some of these kids that graduated in 2008 and 2010,. One of them, um, actually sings in my choir now. Um, and he worked with me for three years when I was at Mount Calvary during the pandemic. I just happened to call him one night and said dad, I wish you were in town because he lived in Philadelphia. He was like, well, I happened to be at what you need. And that one knee turned into three years consecutively three years of him working with me over at Mount Calvary in the middle of the pandemic. Um, so I was able to build those relationships. But a lot of them even come back and say now, had it not been for coming to gospel choir, they don't know what they would have done.
Speaker 4:Uh, because some of them lost parents while they were in high school.
Speaker 4:Some of them, their parents didn't care about them when they went to high school, after high school and even still now, um, some of them came from great homes, but their parents were like, well, they in your possession, they're under your control and you take care of what you need to take care of, um, and I appreciated that because, again. You don't have that old school parenting. If you go to school and you mess up, the teacher can only say, but so much to you. We didn't have that. Thankfully I didn't have that. I was like, no, do what you need to do, um. And I was like, okay, um, so yeah. That approach again even helped me to understand that people are still people and even though they're in the choir at church, they might still be dealing with the same issues. So now you got to look beyond the music and look at the people and see what it is that the people need Um, and those experiences between William Patterson and our time really helped to cultivate that in me as a leader.
Speaker 2:Wonderful. So we say it often in this podcast that it is part the responsibility of the choir director or the music director to ensure that they are cultivating an environment of community and family amongst the choir, because that's what makes a strong, healthy choir a choir that is attractive. So, beyond the music and beyond the singing and the recording, what is it that you want people to walk away with after having worked with you or recorded with you or served with you?
Speaker 4:With a renewed understanding of what choir is, um, and an appreciation for the choir. Um, that's what we grew up with. We grew up with hearing choirs. I mean, from Sunday afternoon going to choir days to just visiting people's churches and hearing choirs, be they small or large. We just knew choir music and I want people to understand that again. Going back to that whole idea of it goes beyond the music. It's a church, it's a garden state they had. Their theme has always been it's more than music, it's a ministry. And we can do so much more if we come together collectively, understanding that it is a ministry. Whether in the secular realm or in the church, it's still a ministry because people still have needs that we can minister to, no matter what, and you really don't get to see those needs until you connect heart to heart.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that's a real thing and I couldn't agree more. In the background you're listening to Be Still and Know by Dr Scott Cumberbatch and the choir, and you can find that music and all of the other projects of his hymns from the heart, one in two, available anywhere. You find good music, scott, thanks again for joining us tonight and allowing us to peek into your ministry and into your musical life. And, as I said earlier, because we have you now, we're going to hold you over for the CRQ and have you input on that as well. Sounds good, and that has our CRQ for the day.
Speaker 1:Thanks so much, greg. Once again, this is the first CRQ of the year, of the new year, and so our CRQ this evening is this looking for gospel choir music any suggestions on where to find it? Now, we know this is the choir room. Looking for gospel gospel music any suggestions? Good gospel music, any suggestions on where to find it?
Speaker 1:Something that I had expressed to Greg a few days ago, that is, this question, came about during a conversation that I was having with a fellow colleague in music ministry and we were just talking about music and what's out today versus what we've listened to growing up, and so and I begin to say to them that listen, I have started listening to choir music again, and I can thank Greg Thomas for that, because, because of this choir room podcast, I had to go back and start listening again, because, I have to say, be honest about it, I had stopped.
Speaker 1:Now I'm a gospel music singer, right Right, but I had stopped listening to a lot of the gospel that we hear, and so if I should put it on at all, if I should turn it on at all, it was usually something from 1980, something and down, you know. So that's pretty much where I stayed. That was the vein in which I, every morning I was getting up. There was one song in particular that that would play in my house once a day, and this was going on for this almost a year now, and that's full and complete by Walter.
Speaker 3:Is that what? I'm not sure. If it was, walter.
Speaker 1:Walter Hawkins. Yeah, we'll get the right brother right, walter Hawkins. And that plays once a day every week. So when they, when you start to talk to me about good choir choir music, I immediately go back 2025 years. That's my first stop. Unfortunately, there has there no, I won't say unfortunately, but fortunately there has been quite a bit of music from that time to this. So I'm kind of feeling like Coleman in this, a little bit Greg with context. Now, because this question did not specify what age group these choirs might be in the churches. I know Dorian is like why do they have so many choirs?
Speaker 3:I get it.
Speaker 1:I get it, you get it, okay. Oh, we have so many.
Speaker 3:I don't get it either I understand, I don't get it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean we had quite a few. So when I was listening and just kind of going over this question, I guess it depends on what the house needs. I don't think that you should always pull from the top 40 for certain congregations. Certain congregations, they just it doesn't. It doesn't fit. Not all of the stuff that we listen to every day, our regular listening to, we could their good listening songs, but not necessarily the best fit for the church choir, which you know that happens with all of us. We have our favorites, we have our favorite songs that we love to listen to, but we know, as a choir director, this might not, it might land flat in the congregation in which we serve in. You have to be very careful in picking and choosing. I said this once before.
Speaker 1:My father was notorious for, you know, at the time we had LPs, the records. You know you had the side a and side B and you know the hot song was usually on side a, right, but the jewels, the gyms, were on the B side. That right Nobody was singing. But and I have to say, by the way, because that was my biggest musical influence, a lot of the songs that Bible way saying back in that time came from the B side of the record and people were trying to figure out where'd you get that, where'd you find that? How are y'all singing it? And nobody else is singing it. Well, if you turn the record over, you turn it over, there it is, and it like we would never have thought to do that. See, you see, you see what happens. So you know, don't just assume that Just because they're playing it on the radio that this is going to be the best fit for the church. So that's why this, this question, I'm going to toss it to you, wise gentlemen, you all wise gentlemen. So, gentlemen, what?
Speaker 4:say you want to tap into that. So there's a few parts that I want to happen to you. So you talk about going back to that era and I know that word was used on you earlier this A certain era that you represent.
Speaker 1:But I'm still trying to recover.
Speaker 4:But even in thinking about that, that era of music from the 60s to the early 90s, when you talk about going from Andre Crouch to the Hawkins Brothers to Smallwood, to Thomas Whitfield, to the Tommy's, to there's so many institutional over in New York to the Bible way recording choir, there's so many choirs that, of course, james Cleveland with GMWA they recorded every year. So every year there was a conference, there was a new recording coming out and I think I'm like your late dad, I was always, I'm always that person that finds the jewels on the project and it may not necessarily be the song that you hear on the radio, but it's just that song that stands out because there's something about the lyrics that stand out or there's something about the lyrics and the way the lyrics are married to the melody that stands out. That I feel like will fit. But yes, I definitely agree on picking stuff that fits the house.
Speaker 4:In serving in the last church where I was for eight years, my assistant minister of music was one who liked to follow the top 40 and I said, well, define what the top 40 is. And then, like six months later, I said well, define what the top 40 is and the definition change. I said, and this is the problem, are we looking at what's being played on the radio? Are we looking at what's going to minister to the people? The church where we were had a large conglomeration of traditional, loving people. So for us to go and pull out the latest Ricky Dillard song might not necessarily be the best thing. Even though I had a few voices that could do it, I knew all of my voices couldn't do it because I had seasoned saints that were beyond, like into their seventies and some older than that. I didn't want to push them, but if I gave them something like going reaching back to 84 to all in his hand, that minister to them or reaching back to Douglas Miller would pass me, not that minister to them, and you would see the folks jumping up or even going into the nineties with order my steps. The folks are jumping up in this scene.
Speaker 4:Or the singing. There is no way million choirs have re recorded that song but that song goes back to the eighties with the Tommy's like. That song is almost as old as I am, literally all the goals I am. So again you got to know what fits and I think a lot of the artists now, a lot of the recording artists now have figured out that in their template they've got to add one song that's already been recorded somewhere because they know that's going to grab the people. So you want to keep introducing new stuff on your project but you got to get that one classic. If you go back and grab that one classic and that's something that somebody pointed out to me about us with our recording Like we did a lot of old stuff, a lot of new stuff, a lot of new stuff, a lot of new stuff.
Speaker 4:But I went back and I pulled out stretch out from institutional and I pulled Dr Margaret DeRose, give me a clean heart. The moment that I said we're going to sing just a few minutes of the old classic song written by Dr Margaret Pleasant DeRose that just says give me a clean heart. The church was ready to go up. Then I'm like we didn't even see anything yet, but again it ministered and this was these were people of all ages. So, like you said before me, like somebody prayed for me.
Speaker 4:You got to think about that. Somebody did pray for us, because if they hadn't prayed for us, where would we have been? Well, some of the stuff and some of the people that we hung out with, some of the people we went to school with. It could have been anything. I mean just getting behind the wheel of a car and driving somewhere. Thank God somebody prayed for us because we got behind that wheel, driving that all kind of crazy speed and anything could have happened, but we made it home safely, we made it to our destination safely because somebody was praying for us.
Speaker 4:And so I always warned all choir directors, all ministers of music, musicians when you're choosing songs, make sure that they are gospel and not just inspirational, because the gospel is never going to fade away. The Bible tells you that the flower fades, but the word of the Lord, with whatever stands on, as long as you're singing Bible, it's never going to go out of style. And you can be that innovative person and take it and update it, if you want to, just a little bit. Of course, don't steal away from what the composer gave, but maybe just add a little twist here and there if you want to just update it to make it sound a little bit more contemporary. But that's always my suggestion Just make sure that you're paying attention to the lyrics and make sure that you're paying attention to the house.
Speaker 3:I was going to say. I mean, there are plenty of places you can look, but I'm going to go back to something Scott said. I mean we have to get back to where we're evaluating the songs that we're singing and comparing them to the word of God, because we are in a time where people are trying to redefine truth and say what truth is, but we know that the Bible is the only truth, the ultimate truth, and so if we are going to have any kind of lasting ministry, it has to be founded on, based on, rooted in, grounded in the word of God. And so, as you're evaluating songs to sing, my advice would be where can you find, though not necessarily even those words, but those principles, that concept, all of those things? Where can you find that? In the Bible, because that's, ultimately, it's the word of God that impacts people's hearts, it's the word of God that changes people, that convicts people, that conforms them to the image of Christ. And so that would be my advice for folks as they're thinking about music music to sing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think the mere mention of you know, because the question was where can we find good gospel music for choir? The mere mention of gospel connotes that this is probably a church choir or somebody asking on behalf of a church choir. But to our previous conversation with God with regards to the college choir, I don't want to assume that the person asking the question is not a college choir gospel choir person looking for music for their gospel choir in their school. Now I want to point out something, because that Scott was speaking about his influences, but it triggered something in me and I had to walk away and and pick up something. Now our listeners can't see this, but you guys can see this. Take a look at this. I'm going to do something here. You can't just go out and do this anymore. You can't find that right there.
Speaker 4:Yes, sir.
Speaker 2:You see, what that is.
Speaker 4:Yes, sir, church of love, that's that's professor.
Speaker 2:Now, that's the B side. Notice what's highlighted on the B side the one song that everybody, at least in the local church community, Lord. I'm running was Lord. I'm running Trying to make a hundred. Yes, sir, right, 99 and a half. That was the staple, and I just happened to have this over here. I've got hundreds of them, wow.
Speaker 2:This one on the top because I was trying a new LP a few weeks ago, but it didn't stop there. This is the LP from the first recording that I ever attended. Now, for our audience again, I'm holding up for them to see LPs. These are albums, vinyl LPs, long play. Now, this was the first recording, live recording, that I had ever attended, and this was my choir director at the time. Yep, william.
Speaker 2:Keeble Hardy Gilmore Memorial Tabernacle one of the finest choirs in the area and, believe it or not, that's available now on Apple Music because I have it.
Speaker 4:Well, I got the LP and the sleeve. I do too. It's right, it's right over here.
Speaker 2:Well, this is how we used to find new music for choir. You heard a song on the radio, or two. If you're lucky, you heard two from one project, but usually it was just one that the label was pushing or the industry was pushing, and you had to buy the entire album. You couldn't, you couldn't select the track yet to buy the whole thing. Now, obviously, today, that's a lot different and a lot easier. You can buy single tracks if you hear a song that you like. There's a lot more access, but there's also a lot more music, and so, between Apple Music and Spotify, amazon Music and all of the other services out there in addition to YouTube, you're going to have to spend some time finding music that fits your group, and so you almost have to know what kind of music you're looking for, and I don't mean in terms of genre. If you're looking for gospel music, as this writer stated, then you have to almost know what, what style of gospel music you're looking for, and then you have to go into this exhaustive search. You can take the top 40 approach and listen to what's what's you know, most popular today, or, if you want to do the B side, and we. We talk about the B side, that's the stuff that's a little less popular, which I love, because I realized that there's a lot more jewels on the B side of a project, or or the songs that the industry is not pushing. That are great songs. And so if you want your choir to be a trendsetter and not just a trend follower, where your choir is sounding like every other choir, I suggest you do a search for gospel choir music and then, when you start to see the top 40, the more popular artists, I suggest you skip those and start to explore more independent artists, because you're going to find music that may not be mainstream in terms of the industry, but certainly music that is hitting the mark. It's got the gospel message, it's got the vibe and it can be executed well by your choir, my Lord. And then there's that Now, whether you get music from online or whether you get it from attending a conference, which is another place where you can always find new material, great material go to some of the gospel music conferences Scott mentioned a few of them earlier and if you can't get to some of the national conventions or conferences, then look for some of the workshops and seminars that are happening in your area, but there is a lot of music out there that is not being heard on radio and because we are inundated with so much music today online, you're going to have to do some searching. But be specific on what you're looking for, and I think that will cut down on the time you spend looking for new music.
Speaker 2:Now, we've all said it here today and we say it often in this podcast. Dorian, hit on it If you're looking for gospel music for your choir, then you have to make sure that it has the gospel in it. I like to say it this way Make sure that your song is laced and lined with the gospel of truth. Thanks again, dorian and Mietta, and, of course, to our guest contributor, scott Cumberbatch. And remember, friends, if ever we put the messenger before the message, we have failed to present an unblemished gospel. I'm Greg Thomas. Join us again next week right here in the choir room.
