The Choir Room Podcast
This podcast exists to promote and encourage two long-time traditions in our society that seem to be dwindling…The Choir and Corporate Singing. We hope to revive the excitement and joy experienced with singing in a choir, as well as inform and educate the listener on all things singing, and all things choir related.
A weekly podcast featuring discussion and interviews with choir directors, choir members, and other guests representing church choirs, college and university choirs, community choirs, show and theatre choirs, composer of choir music, and other.
Segments include tips and instruction from skilled and professional disciplines within the choir community covering topics such as choir culture and community, choir directing, vocal training, ear training, sight reading, and more. A monthly virtual live audience episode allows the listener to engage with hosts and guests during instructional and Q&A segments via the live recording, chat, email, on various social media platforms.
A production of Metromusic & Arts, Inc.
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The Choir Room Podcast
Renowned Modern Hymn Writer Keith Getty Expounds on The Power of Choir and Communal Singing: The Choir Director and Church Practices, Insights On The Importance of Innovative Hymn Writing, Q&A From Our Audience, and More.
The internet, and the plethora of access it provides, is influencing young people's engagement with music, specifically with choir and corporate singing. Find out how you can contribute your thoughts on the evolution of choir music and the seeming disinterest among today's church generation. We also delve into the pressing issue of an apparent lack of new and innovative music specifically for choirs. The round-up of this segment is highlighted by our hymn of the week, A Mighty Fortress Is Our God, a timeless piece by Martin Luther.
Join us as we unravel this conundrum in an engaging conversation with a globally renowned modern hymn writer. Keith Getty's songs have traversed continents and continue to inspire choirs and congregations worldwide. We're undeniably excited to share Keith Getty's journey into music with you, a narrative punctuated by profound insights into hymn writing and the importance of creating great hymns for the church.
The power of singing - it's truly transformative, both as a spiritual tool and an expression of community. We share experiences from our times in Times Square NYC and at the Sing an Irish Christmas concert at Carnegie Hall, moments that underscored the beauty and power of communal singing.
Our discussion traverses different musical styles and how they uniquely influence choir sound. We emphasize singing's role in scripture, the impact of the internet on choir communities, and of course, the importance of congregational singing. So plug in, share your experiences, and let's collectively rediscover the wonder and joy of singing together.
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Perpetuating and Promoting the Christian and Positive Idea Through the Medium of Music and Other Arts.
Welcome to the choir room.
Speaker 2:Season 1, episode 28 of the Choir Room Podcast. Welcome to the choir room.
Speaker 2:I'm Greg Tomas, your host, and I'll soon be joined by my co-host, dorian Johnson. Welcome to the choir room, be it a stance of farar, and whom we like to call the fourth wheel, coleman Smart. This podcast is a production of Metro Music and Arts, whose purpose is to perpetuate and promote the Christian and positive idea through the medium of music and other arts, and this podcast exists to promote and encourage to long-time traditions in our society that seem to be dwindling away, and that is choir and corporate singing, and we hope to revive the excitement and joy experience with singing in a choir and corporate singing, as well as inform and educate the listener on all things singing and all things choir. We've had such an interesting and quite incredible response to the last three episodes of the podcast. In episode 25, double-ward-winning recording artist LaRue Howard was with us, and then episodes 26 and 27, dr Katherine Hall and vocal coach Tara Simon both joined us again, reminding us of the importance of proper hydration and the effect that it has on the overall body and, of course, your ability to sing. The response to those last three episodes told us a lot about our audience and what you're looking for, and so we're going to be catering more of the future podcast to talks just like those.
Speaker 2:I do call your attention to episode 25 with LaRue Howard, and it's there in that episode that you'll get some tips that you didn't get in episode 26 and 27. In each of those episodes our guests bring their individual knowledge, skill and experience, and you're sure to learn something from each of them. So if you're behind on listening to the podcast, make sure that you go check out episodes 25, 26, and 27 in particular and, of course, all episodes are available wherever you listen to podcasts. If you haven't subscribed already, make sure you do that wherever you get your podcasts and give us a five-star review and tell us how this content is of value to you, and then, of course, share it with a friend. If you'd like to stay informed about upcoming events through the Choir Room, you can send subscribe to the Choir Room at metromusic-artscom.
Speaker 2:Our guest contributor today occupies a unique space in the world of music. He and his wife are Dean Preeminent modern hymn writers, and today they've created a catalog of songs teaching Christian doctrine and crossing the genres of traditional, classical, folk and contemporary compositions, which are sung the world over. According to CCLI, it is estimated that 40 to 50 million people sing at least one of their songs in church services each year. Don't go away. If my dear friend Keith Getty is with us here in the Choir Room Before we get into it, dorian is going to come with our hymn of the week.
Speaker 3:Thanks, Greg, this week's hymn of the week is A Mighty Fortress Is Our God. Psalm 46, verses 1 through 3, say God is our refuge and strength, a very present help and trouble. Therefore, we will not fear, though the earth gives way, though the mountains, be moved into the heart of the sea, though its mountains roar and foam, though the mountains tremble at its swelling. This hymn was written by Martin Luther in 1529, man who, 12 years earlier, on October 31, nailed a document of 95 theses on the door of the Castle Church in Wittenberg, germany. These 95 theses, he sharply criticized the Roman Catholic Church's uses of indulgences or good works for penance, and his act is widely seen as the beginning of the Protestant Reformation, which set forth the biblical truth that salvation was by grace alone, by faith alone in Christ alone. His stand for truth ultimately led him to be excommunicated from the Roman Catholic Church and then to be a condemned and wanted man.
Speaker 3:And while it isn't certain, it seems that this hymn was written from Luther's experience of running from his enemies. And just as Luther experienced these trials and difficulties, every Christian experiences trials and difficulties. And even more, every day, the Christian fights against three enemies the world, flesh and the devil. All are too great to overcome in their own strength. But in the face of such opposition, this hymn declares God's constant presence as a refuge for his people, declares the great opposition that the Christian faces and declares the confidence that the Christian should have in God. And so, as this hymn is sometimes referred to as the battle hymn of the Reformation, its truths still stand today, because the truths are based in the Word of God. And as we look to Psalm 46, which began proclaiming God's imminent, stirring times of trouble, may our refrain and our confidence be verse 11 of Psalm 46, the Lord of hosts is with us. The God of Jacob is our fortress. Welcome to the choir room. Welcome to the choir room.
Speaker 2:You know, guys, I know we discussed in the previous CRQ and discussed a little bit during this break, the waning or the lack of interest, as it seems, in this particular generation, inquire or corporate singing. Now I don't know that. I fully agree with the idea that there are less people in corporate gatherings singing today. In fact, with the advent of the internet we're seeing a whole lot more of it, especially with this young generation. However, I'm not seeing as much interest inquire as there used to be, and I wonder if that's not also contributing to the fact that we don't have great or we're not getting as much great choir music as we used to get, and certainly not new or innovative, with a lot of new music, but certainly not specifically for choir.
Speaker 4:We're not hearing that today. It's funny. You should say that. It's funny you should say I learned from my dad. My dad was a choir director all of my life until he died. He was a choir director and we used to talk about the music that he chose. Often, Oftentimes, he never chose the music that was most popular. Never did, he just just did and I adopted that same. I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing At the time and I'm probably dating myself. Thank you, Coleman. Now I have to face my mortality for years.
Speaker 5:Why did you say thank you, Coleman? This conversation wasn't being recorded. I'm sorry.
Speaker 4:Thank you, Dorian. He just bought my mortality. Dorian.
Speaker 4:He's like. But there was a time where we got our music from 33's albums, right. So before the CD era, and you had a side A, side B, and my father would always choose side B to start, and I would know why would just nobody knows these songs. He said not yet, not yet. And he had become so. He was genius with that.
Speaker 4:Because what ended up happening was people were coming to the church and hearing this music that they really have, that now they've heard what was playing on the radio, and then they were trying to figure out wait a minute, is this the same choir? Yes, the same choir. Flip the album over. There are some gems on side B and we had to be forced to I guess you say forced we had to be forced to sit and listen to music that we've never heard, because we were so listening, used to listening to what was being played on the airway, and he brought us into a whole different mindset. And what ended up happening? We kind of forgot about the top 40 and really enjoyed the meat of what was happening on side B. And if he had not, I believe if he had not taught us how to do that, I think we would have gotten stuck, would have gotten stuck in a particular place, and I don't know how effective it would have been down the road. So yeah, I totally agree.
Speaker 2:I love that. That's so true. Nobody would be singing the just shall live by faith because it was on side B, side B. There you have it. You would sing it yeah.
Speaker 4:And it's become now one of my faves.
Speaker 2:So we have to consider the fact then that you know, today we have access to more music than we've ever had in the history of the world, and we're not listening to side A or side B anymore. Now. There are pros and cons with that More pros for the consumer, more cons for the writers that's a whole other discussion. But we're listening to one song and then we're getting another song in our playlist from a completely different artist, and so you're not getting the full collection of music from that choir or that artist all at the same time as we used to. There's a lot more music, a lot more distractions, a lot more copycats. Yes, well, I could go on. Well, back to the original CRQ what qualifies one to be a choir director? And I think there's some offshoots from that question and from the answers.
Speaker 4:It's something that I grew up in, a church that had an abundance of gifts, an abundance of talents, and so I believe I was spoiled. I think I was spoiled a little bit with that because I just thought that everywhere I went functioned like where I came from, right. So when I was able to get out of the box a little bit and see how the other half lives or how other people live, I had the biggest culture shock and so and I had to develop my ear because I'm much like Dorian I don't play anything, I play absolutely nothing Right.
Speaker 2:So I had to play a good.
Speaker 4:Tamarind, though. Well, you know.
Speaker 8:You play something.
Speaker 4:I played. I played drum only for my own usage. You would definitely not go outside the house and do that, but I don't. You know I don't play. So I had to my ears where are everything to me? If my ears, I'm just going to go home and go to bed, I'm done. But when I got out of that box and went into other places, other spaces that did not have all of those beautiful comforts, creature comforts I had to learn. I had to learn to do things differently Because I wasn't out of musician, I was just a choir director. So I had to really really spend some time and and and assess my situation and do things a whole lot differently than I was doing them. At the church that I came for, I read something the other day that really kind of blew my mind and it's been on my brain for a few days now and it's. It read pastors need to stop getting musicians when all they really need is a choir director. You know all they really need is a choir director.
Speaker 4:But and that's a context matter as well- it is because you know there were churches in our city, greg, and you knew there were churches in our city who the, the, the musician was the choir director to Uh huh Yep, I didn't know that that was a thing until I went and it was, and I found that to be the case in most of the Baptist churches because I didn't grow up in a Baptist church. So we had everything. We had to choir, we had the choir director, we had the musicians, we had everybody had their place. So when I went over to my friends Baptist churches I realized that, oh so the musician is everything, like he was she, he's the choir director. That's like, oh, my goodness, this is, this is how the other half live.
Speaker 2:I didn't know that was a you know, as a musician I've had the opportunity over the years to to you know, being a lot of those circles and all of those circles Baptist church, pentecostal church, apostolic holiness, presbyterian, methodist, you name it and and one of the things I noticed that was a significant difference.
Speaker 2:Aside from the doctrinal differences, which weren't major differences, there were operational differences.
Speaker 2:In the Baptist church, in particular, the choir director was often the musician or the musician was often also the choir director, so he or she, he or she, would sit there and play, but they were also paid positions and if the church couldn't afford to pay them in terms of salary, there would be a token, you know, a token of our appreciation, appreciation to the musician each week.
Speaker 2:And in the Baptist church, much like the Presbyterian or the Catholic or the Methodist, there was an order of service each week that was pretty standard, which included responsive readings, it included congregational hymns, the sermonic selection, it included an offer to a song and then, as the church grew and became a little more modern than we had, welcome songs and you know, you had the special offering song, and then I won't go any further because then we get into too much, too much of the extra stuff where the Pentecostal, the apostolic or the more charismatic churches were a little more freestyle and so there wasn't as much congregational singing but more singing to the people and then, of course, leading the people, and so that led to the door opening to more instrumentation guitars, drums, bass, etc in the Pentecostal and apostolic churches that you wouldn't hear in the traditional Baptist church. I mean, there were scrubboards and hangers in the Pentecostal church, you know and you didn't have to get into my Appalachian roots. Come on we had spoons.
Speaker 5:We had the washboard.
Speaker 4:Exactly oh the arm percussion session. Just just had it all yeah.
Speaker 2:And see much of that was unheard of in the traditional Baptist church, methodist Presbyterian church. There were considered more quote unquote high church, some would say more dignified. But it was in these circles and in these situations where the musicians then began to get paid because churches were bringing in more skillful or highly trained musicians to cover their services. Now this is a topic for another discussion.
Speaker 5:And even if they didn't have a choir, they would have a lot of time. Like you said, the organist would do it or there would be one person that would stand at the lectern and guide you through the song. It didn't require as many participants as other styles did.
Speaker 2:Right, it was more congregational.
Speaker 5:What might be cool is if we asked our listeners if you guys have any experience with this or your context informs this question or this conversation, and maybe they can send us, send us a little info about their background and their upbringing and that kind of thing.
Speaker 2:I love it Well to our listeners. That's your call to action. If you are a choir member, choir director, involved in music ministry at your church, perhaps we'd love for you to engage in the conversation. We'll get it going on our Facebook page and in our Facebook group. And don't forget that you can send your emails to the choir room at metro music dash arts dot com. Send us your thoughts and your comments with regards to new music or the lack thereof in choir music today. Is your choir director also your primary musician? And then let's take the conversation a little further. Do you feel like this church generation is less interested and therefore less involved with choir music and congregational singing? We'd love to hear from you.
Speaker 1:Thank you. The depths of peace when fear's a step, when striving sees my comfort of my all in all here, in the love of Christ.
Speaker 2:That's the voice of Kristen Getty, the wife of Keith Getty, one of the co-writers of this phenomenal modern day hymn. Along with Stuart Townan, this song holds the number one position for most frequently sung in UK churches for nine consecutive years, and it has made its rounds right here in America as well Many churches In fact. It's estimated that 40 to 50 million people sing in Christ alone in churches each year throughout the USA, canada, australia, throughout the UK and many countries in Europe, and it has gained great popularity throughout Asia. He's a husband, a father, a composer, an accomplished musician, choir director and a samos in his own right. Would you welcome to the choir room a dear friend, keith Getty. Keith, so glad to have you with us. Buddy, I typically don't like to get into the preliminary stuff with regards to where you started, how you started, but I think it's significant for our listeners to understand the background. So would you tell us where Keith started with this whole music journey?
Speaker 7:Well it's. You know, I think our part is less than most people would think. We began, we're both from Ireland and we wanted to write hymns. And in the year 2000, I came off the road from having been involved for the previous three years in a number of theatre tours and I decided to get into my office and write what I called my, my kind of it was.
Speaker 7:I called it my, I think I called it my hymn, rebel songs and that I was fed up with all that was being sung in church being so shallow and being music that really didn't have a substantive, you know time. It was either substantive theologically nor artistically, and I think the Bible wants us to be both of those things. It wants us to be rich in the scriptures, but the scriptures want it to be good, they want it and they want it to be music that lasts. And also just knowing pastorally how you and I have benefited from singing great hymns our whole lives, how the testimony of amazing grace or the reverence of Holy, holy, holy and all these things so punctuate, you know our own personal lives and our family lives and our church lives. And so, in the kindness of the Lord, and that's the only way I can say it. The first hymn that was released was in Christ alone and and that of course you know, and you know I can say it. I can say it was the kindness of the Lord and it's not fake humility, because I've been doing this for 23 years since and I've never repeated that. You know that song. I think it's one of the most you know, one of the most licensed. You know. Sure, you know songs in the history of him copy right now, and but it was just the Lord and his kindness. I wanted to write a hymn which went through the whole Christian story. I said it should sound like the national anthem of Christianity, which of course, is a stupid thing to say, but that's what we wanted it to be. And then, and Stuart and Tony and I wrote it and and that kind of opened the doors of opportunity. So we kept writing.
Speaker 7:I married the love of my life in 2004. And we went and lived in Switzerland for a year and did a tour of America and pretty much less than a year into our marriage, we said you know what this is. What we're going to do the rest of our lives is write and publish and champion a great deep hymns for the church, not that the church had only sing hymns, but that we do need something substantive. Sure, we do need to be safe. You know, at the core of what are, what are we as individuals, and our families are children that we take care of. Our churches need to have a core of substantial songs, and they can be 50% of it, they can be 80% of it, they can be 30% of it, but we need. We need those things, and the responsibility is both to champion great hymns but also then also to to try and write and publish a new generation.
Speaker 7:So for a number of years we wrote and over time we now have a hymn publishing company as well, with 14 extraordinary writers that have that have contributed some of the finest modern hymns to the global church today. So that, and then throughout the organization, we've got we've the so course, the sing conference, which is the global gathering every year. We've got a tour with that last year. We've got a touring company which we've partnered with Times Square over the years, both where they hosted the hymn concerts, yes and also where they've participated in the Christmas tour, which is the two tours we're now involved in a hymnal and we also. What we do is there's a percentage. We created a legal document that a percentage of all the intellectual property every 90 days gets signed over to a thing called the foundation or the music foundations, the family foundation, and that is going to try and encourage and support young hymn writers in other languages outside of English. That's awesome. So that's kind of the summary of it.
Speaker 7:We talk about the 2050 goal. I don't know whether I'll be 75 if I get to 2050, but the goal is that our grandchildren will have deep thoughts about the Lord. You know they will sing deeply about the Lord, they'll know his word deeply and their families and their churches will be joined together, and also that there will be creative, artistic people. Christianity should not be known for what it's against. It should not be known for boring people. It should not be known for garbage music and, frankly, all the time it is and it deserves to be. It's not the world being prejudice against them, it's just people making sad observations that are too often true and we need to do better than that. It's not good enough. So that's a summary, if that helps.
Speaker 2:That's beautiful, and I see that your kids are becoming just what you've spoken just now, so I'm seeing some wonderful things happen.
Speaker 7:Well, I just told it, we have your breakfast this morning, so I'm not sure I totally agree, but you know that's I might beg to differ.
Speaker 2:Well, speaking of in Christ alone. I can remember the first time we did it in New York, and it was without plan. In fact none of the musicians, including myself, knew it. One of the worship leaders started singing it and it was, the moment was right, and so we just followed suit by ear and it's amazing that we got the chords so close to what they actually are. But I remember that song just progressively going, verse by verse and climaxing to a place where the place just erupted.
Speaker 7:And it's pentatonic, it's pentatonic.
Speaker 2:It's so pentatonic yeah.
Speaker 9:But it's basically a spiritual. I'm going to tell all my black gospel friends to say guys, it's a spiritual.
Speaker 2:Well, needless to say, the song didn't remain the same when we started playing it. Obviously it took on a New York vibe. We New Yorker fight it. And so now you got all of these alternate chords and suspensions etc. But the song so moves you through the gospel message and though it may seem somewhat simplistic in its chord structure, it's beautifully written, and I think we lack a lot of that music today where it's more musically brilliant and theologically weak.
Speaker 7:I think it has to be both. I think theological signage with horrible melodies is horrible.
Speaker 2:I couldn't agree more Really honest, but theologically sound. First, because I think we have so much musical brilliance today and I don't mind saying it, but particularly in gospel music there's more musical brilliance than there is content a lot of the time, which is why I'm a big proponent of making sure that the message is there first and that we can beautify it musically later. I agree with you.
Speaker 2:But I do want to point out the fact that more choirs are beginning to do their version of in Christ alone as well. Now let's shift just a little bit, because I've had the privilege of attending the Sing Conference over the years. Tell our audience a bit about the Sing Conference.
Speaker 7:You were interviewed in one, we did one, we did one and we did an interview on the main stage on four I think was it four perspectives and choral singing. Yes.
Speaker 2:It was three or four of us, it was three or three.
Speaker 7:It was three different, three or four different characters A classical composer working in the mainstream, and it was a Baptist choral director who had managed to get his choirs to China, the Middle East and North Korea to sing the gospel Amazing. And then it was all the things that you guys had done at Times Square in New York.
Speaker 2:City. It was a great.
Speaker 7:I remember that was a neat interview, wasn't it? It was a great time. It was the power of choirs. Yes, you know what I mean. One guy, purely classical, in a community right now that's very, very anti-Christian. One of them taking the local choir thing and saying, actually, the choir should be the most missionable part of our churches. Yes, we should not be the most narcissistic, kind of obnoxious, egotistical part of the church. We should be the most missionable part of the church. And just a guy who just had this crazy vision for let's bring our choirs to North Korea, and I don't know how he did. I still don't know to this day how he got his choirs into North Korea.
Speaker 4:But he did, he pulled it off.
Speaker 7:He found an angle, you know, yeah, and then just the ministry that you guys have been involved in for so many years in that church. Growing up in Northern Ireland, one of my goals in life was to go to America and visit Times Square Church.
Speaker 2:Well, we got you there a couple times.
Speaker 7:That was a special, that was a bucket list thing for me to get to visit your wonderful church.
Speaker 2:Well, I'm glad to hear that, and we became the better for it. Hi everyone.
Speaker 9:We're inviting you to sing an Irish Christmas. This Christmas it's going throughout the nation as an evening of music and dance and singing the great carols of the Christian faith with people throughout this entire nation. Consider coming, bringing family, bringing friends, bringing your church, bringing maybe other friends you know who are yet to believe. It's just a wonderful evening of joy and we hope you can all join us.
Speaker 2:I've had the privilege of attending and participating in the Sing an Irish Christmas event. You don't want to miss this Carnegie Hall December 9th. And for discount tickets for your purchase, email the choir room at metro music dash arts dot com. My wife and I will be there. Our co-hosts and their spouses will be there, so get your tickets. We want to see you in the place. Keith, your musicians are just a joy to watch and hear.
Speaker 7:I'll tell you this One of the things we've enjoyed in our band. Three of our band two of our band are African-American, one's African-Arabian and four of us are Irish and the interaction between Celtic and more traditional black music styles is actually really fun. And I think it's come because they're people who love the Lord, they love each other and also they just want to make great music. Do you know what I mean? They work hard to make it great and because they're also good, they'll try and make something good, but if it's not good, they'll go OK, let's not do that, it's just a little more. You know what I mean. And we'll say it nicely to each other. Sometimes their bubbles get burst a little bit, but that's OK. But that didn't come because we're trying to be cool. That didn't come because we're trying to do the next thing To be because we're somehow bending the culture. That became because we love the Lord and we loved each other and we spent a ton of time together. Do you know what I mean? And we were there for each other.
Speaker 7:And I think great art does come out of great community, and I know that's not why I'm here, but I think it's important for our choir. So I think what makes great choirs. You know, when I broke into the music industry and I was 18 years old, I became a conductor for the BBC and a lot of their stuff and we always used to make this joke I did a choir as an orchestra and the joke was always you join an orchestra. If you love singing in a choir, you join a choir. If you love your instrument, you join an orchestra. And that's why the atmosphere is different in both and that's why they're actually different things. Even in the Bible the symbolism is different. A choir is a unity of people. You can put up with a choir that's a 60% choir 70%, 80% in terms of its standard, if the people love each other and they enjoy being together.
Speaker 2:That community is crucial. There's nothing like that community. Where in an orchestra, the musicians play. They come through their thing and then they scatter.
Speaker 7:Yeah, they're glad because they love their oboe and they still practice their oboe or whatever it is, or their cello or whatever the thing is they do.
Speaker 2:You know, when we talk about choir and community, corporate singing or corporate worship, what is the most significant thing to you as it relates to those groups, as it relates to that coming together?
Speaker 7:Well, I think the difference between singing and other artistic expressions or a lot of other things we do as part of our wake up, part of the Christian life, is that number one we're commanded to sing and to command to sing. If you include the exhortations like proclaim praise I think it's about the edith and the Psalms, different words that are used If you include them all, it becomes the second most common command in all of Scripture. In other words, singing is deeply important to God. Most of us have raised kids here. When we tell our kids we will repeat something to our kids, they know it's more important, doesn't know it's mean the best, but they know it's more important. And so, if this is the thing that God has said second most important, it's of huge significance. And so it's important that when we bring people to sing at church, when we're introducing people in our worship, it's important for people that are choir doing this. Yes, because they love to sing and yes, because their choir is cool and it's fun and they love music. But we're supposed to do this primarily because God has said you do this. So, regardless of our state of mind and I say this very sensitively because you know I've been sitting, spending a lot of the last 24 hours with a friend of mine who just lost his daughter and he doesn't feel much like singing. So I feel that pain very acutely. But you know, we sing first of all because we're commanded to sing and so when we're leading our congregations we don't have to be bossy or bullish or patronizing, but we can just, you know, read the Psalms to say, hey, we're starting the service, you know we use something from the Psalms, just read something beautiful and help people understand in the audience. Because I think and this has happened in every tradition, this happened in the English cathedral tradition was, you know, the service became increasingly about the choir, because the better the music was, the more people come to your church in the short term. But that doesn't build a body of believers. And then the same thing has happened in the modern megachurch where it's become more about the front. And you know the black gospel tradition is a much stronger tradition historically for congregational singing. But we all have to watch it. We all have to watch it Because it can easily become all about the front. But the whole congregation need to know they are there to sing because they're commanded to sing. So the guy who's very unemotional, our sports fan and you know doesn't like singing or can't sing in tune, naturally. You know he's still allowed to sing, you know, and that's what makes it different than painting and that's what makes it different than so many other things.
Speaker 7:The second thing is that we're created to sing. So when we sing to our maker and our redeemer, we feel a sense of joy that nothing else in this life could give. I mean our offices. I live here in the south side of the city in Nashville. Our offices are just off Music Row, so I can drive down Music Row in the morning to our offices and I can see people eating. Some people here are my friends on the posters.
Speaker 7:Congratulations on this number one. Come to the big party tonight to celebrate them. And you see it all around Times Square, all the bookboards. Let me tell you this I have never once been tempted to want to wish that life rather than the life I have.
Speaker 7:The joy of singing to our Lord is a joy that is more intense and more beautiful and more holy. But it also means being. We were created to sing. It also means our Lord loves created beauty. You know what I mean. He loves beauty, whether it's the Grand Canyon or whether it's the Irish coastline. He loves beauty and you see it all around Times Square is that we are made as human beings to create beautifully. So that's why it's important for choir members and choir directors and composers and arrangers and piano players to play well, because every note counts. Every note counts, that's great, yeah, and the Lord appreciates excellence. There are some sections of the church who almost look down on musical excellence, are deliberately or not encouraging because they're worried somehow that we might get too pride. We still want to encourage each other to play beautifully. You know, your fellow New Yorker, tim Keller, used to always say that excellence is the most inclusive virtue.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 7:If you're a really funny person, everyone wants to listen to you. If you're a really good cook, everyone wants to come to your house when you're cooking. If you make beautiful music, everybody wants to listen, you know, and so. So I think that's the second thing, but I think the big reason that we sing is because of Christ. And, sorry to be, I grew up Presbyterian guy, so I have to do my kind of three C's, but you know, commandment and then Christ, and you know, you know, I remember, I remember actually watching that was one of the Brooklyn Tabernacle videos where that guy who had been left in the streets for dead he was he crack with you and addict Calvin.
Speaker 7:And then you sang that song I'm clean, I'm clean. I think his name was Calvin. Right, I'm clean, I've been washed in the blood and the tears rolling down his face. That's how we should all feel, you know. I mean, I don't know if you know my conversion wasn't as dramatic, but my word, how the Lord has freed us from from, from the, you know, from sin and death and being slaves to ourselves. You know what I mean. So so I've spoken for too long, I'm so sorry.
Speaker 2:No, no, I love it, it's a command.
Speaker 7:Command it to sing yeah, some question.
Speaker 2:Command it, create it and create it, and for Christ, amen. No, no, that's, that's, that's what I couldn't have said it better. No, maybe a little bit, but not not.
Speaker 7:No, you could have. You could have. You got the vibe. I got no vibe. No, I'm sure, on rhythmic my wife doesn't even let me clap.
Speaker 2:We don't believe that, not even for a second. You've got a command it to sing. Created to sing and because of Christ and I've often said in this podcast and say it often, in fact it was the catalyst for this podcast the choir room is, that is, that people should be singing. In scripture says make a joy for noise into the load all you land. It doesn't say make a joy for noise if you have a beautiful voice, just make a joy for noise unto the Lord and so give that to him. And I think the beauty of congregational singing as much as I love choir the beauty of congregational singing is that you don't have to audition, you just have to open your mouth and grab hold of those three C's and I think when you do, something wonderful comes out of you.
Speaker 7:I used to. I used to tell I was asked somewhere to ask someone else who wants. Why is it? The Lord can be, can delight in all of our singing, even if you're like one of the star solos in the choir or you're somebody who's rolled in off the street and can't sing. Why is the Lord like them all?
Speaker 7:So I told this story about one time our girls, when the girl, when Eliza, charlotte and Gracie were small, before Tally was born, and we are Christen used to do this him and the month. That we're not, we're not one of these like fancy Christian families that do like, you know, to our devotionals and all the kids are perfect and gentlemen, then they're always smiling all the time. We're just like, we're just a mess, so like. But we do, we do him every month, we do it each day, and you so often it was just, we take him to bed at night. We do the him and the month. I would say the Lord's prayer, then we'd turn the lights on and and you know whatever else, but anyway, we're doing holy, holy, holy. So we're doing holy, holy, holy. And so we're all one of the room, one like okay, girls, let's all sing a verse of holy, holy before bed. This is our him and the month and Eliza goes. Can I go first? She's the oldest and she goes holy, holy, holy.
Speaker 7:Just typical oldest child, trying her best, doing everything right, being slightly competitive, slightly patronizing, you know, but it was great, you know. Then Charlotte, the second kid, who's a bit more of a, you know a little bit more of a, let's say, let's say, let's say it's got a little bit more attitude. She gets up but she's an amazing singer. So she sings it, but just like rows or shoulders, doesn't it care? And then Grace, he gets up and she goes. She just always wanted to be like her big sisters and she went holy, holy, holy. How I wonder what. You are up above the world, so high like a diamond in the sky, holy, holy, holy. Listen, trinity, but you know, if you're going to tell me, as my, as a dad, as the dad, that I, I loved her, anywhere less is just not true.
Speaker 7:She was three years old, you know, she was three years old. So so she, you know, she's telling you twinkle, twinkle better, and they're kind of the same. They're kind of the same change. So it was like you know so. That's, that's how God looks at us, you know.
Speaker 2:That's awesome. That's awesome. I've seen the hymn of the month. I think you do it on YouTube. There's something out there it's free.
Speaker 7:Everything my wife does costs just money.
Speaker 2:Well, it's bringing some returns. Well, we just heard the promo for the Irish Christmas. Tell our audience a little more about it.
Speaker 7:Well, we're still working through. We're not announcing the guests until next week, so we're one week early for the guests. But for the musical guests it was a little this year. Kristen and I have always had a romance about New York. We came to New York to get engaged. Obviously we need Tim. We just love the city, we love the energy, we love the multicultural thing, and so I can tell you the second half this week and then next week we'll tell you the first half.
Speaker 7:So the second half, nine lessons in carols, we have this year. I just thought I want this year to be a tribute to New York because I was at Tim's funeral earlier in the year. Last year we did the Confessio record. The Grammy nominee at Albemont was Irish but Irish American roots, and Ricky Skagg is not those guys who our Kirk Willem was there. So the second half, the ninth lesson, is going to be in the beginning was the word, and then there'll be a closing prayer by Michael Keller. So Michael Keller is going to do that. I think AR Bernard is going to do the thought and the eighth lesson. So he's going to do the reading and AR Bernard is going to do some thoughts there. Malcolm Guy the poet. He's actually an English poet, but he's writing a poem about New York being premiered at Carnegie Hall that night in the second half. It's going to be good, I can tell you. On the classical end we're doing. It's the 300th anniversary of Jesus' joy of man's desiring by this guy here. Wow, nice job, good job. I've been encouraging him.
Speaker 2:I think he winked at you man. That's a little scary.
Speaker 7:No, he didn't. He doesn't listen too close to our version, but we're going to do a 300th anniversary of Jesus' joy of man's desiring in the second half as well. That's the second half. That's going to be awesome. I can count the nine to the first half till next week. I'm so sorry.
Speaker 2:I understand. No, no, no, that's great, great, and the date right now is December 9th this year is the ninth, Ninth Saturday night.
Speaker 7:Saturday night live. My friends Saturday night live, and you don't usually do a Saturday, it's usually on a Thursday night. They usually give us the worst possible night. They're actually next year. It's Monday the 16th. Next year it's my 50th birthday. I know how could someone who looks so young be turning 50 next Christmas?
Speaker 2:Well, you know you and I are. You know we share a birthday, right? You forgot about that. I had forgotten.
Speaker 7:You did so. Will, you, will, you, will, you, will you make a guest appearance with me on stage.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. It's going to be my birthday too. If I can't get on the stage, I'm not coming.
Speaker 7:Right, do you know who else's birthday it is? It's Jerry Root, who the world authority in CS Lewis. Oh really, yeah, yeah, yeah, wow, maybe we should do a trio together. Yeah, it's good. And do you know who else's birthday? It is Beethoven, kandinsky, alexander the Great, cheyenne, austin. There are so many amazing people born in the 16th. You've studied this thing, wow, yeah yeah, yeah, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a. The Boston Tea Party happened in the 16th of December.
Speaker 2:Well, that I remember. I learned that in school.
Speaker 7:No, coward thing to stay at our guy. If you guys are into Broadway, celebrates no coward. For many reasons. I can get ready for him, guys. Well, somebody, george Whitfield, the revivalist, george Whitfield, 16th of December 16th really. Please rescue this podcast from the end.
Speaker 2:Okay, Before we get into our callers, tell us about the sing conference.
Speaker 7:Yeah, yeah yeah, so, um, so, the. The singing conference this year is called singing. There's songs in the Bible. Many of the great expositors and great artists are going to be coming together. First day is the Old Testament, bathing in the Psalms. The second day is the New Testament, with a global thing that night it's really and the third day is called the Bible in the modern world, and so lots of interesting things. I mean the.
Speaker 7:I'm trying to think, uh, the first night is going to finish with a couple of late night shows. We're going to do a Messiah thing, handles Messiah. We're also doing Andrew Peterson. If you know Andrew Peterson, it's Behold the Lamb of God, musical Uh-huh, genesis revelation. He's in that. The first night, then the second night we have this incredible celebration of revelation, the great hymns, the great liturgy of of heaven, and we've actually got a completely global audience.
Speaker 7:We're I've been asked to lead the global band for Lausanne Congress next year. Every 15 years, as you know, lausanne Congress happens and it's going to be in South Korea. So I got our band plus four extras, which gives it a kind of a six component. A six component, okay, should have multiple, cultural, multi thing, and so that band are going to lead the same conference first and then do Lausanne, so it's going to be a real celebration of that. Um, we would 41 nationalities at the conference next year. We're not. We're not Times Square yet, but we can. Yeah, we do our best. You know we're one of these, and uh, and then we also got some really interesting people in the 30. You know Chris's uncle, professor John Lennox. He will be there. Rick Dempsey, the old is that her uncle, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 9:I didn't know that he introduced us. I didn't know that.
Speaker 7:I was a slightly strong minded, I'd spoken 18 year old. I know you kind of imagine that You're just thinking I bet he was the loveliest 18 year old. Well, donald Lennox and I was debating people of Islamic backgrounds, of atheist backgrounds, and I needed some help. And I met him and he changed my life. He just was wonderful. And then, six years later, he said he said, by the way, could you do me a favor? And I said do you want to do anything for you? You've been so good to me. And he goes I have this little niece, she's 18.
Speaker 7:She's only 18 years old, just finishing school, and she'd love to sing. But I think she needs somebody, you know, who's Christian and mature and in the industry, could help her, because all the guys around her just want to date her and they all, they're all. She's very beautiful and they all just want to. You know, they're all around her for the wrong reasons and I need somebody who's older, more mature, who can take care of her and protect her, and so could you be that person? So yeah, so yeah.
Speaker 2:Wow, I did not know that.
Speaker 7:What a stupid idiot I mean stupid idiot.
Speaker 2:Well, if anything, you wised up.
Speaker 7:Yeah, that's right, and she wouldn't go out with me for three years. I mean, man, she put me through the ringer, yeah. She had to know, I had to know that I had to work, I had to keep writing songs just to get, just to get something close to a date, you know, like a get.
Speaker 2:So man, that's exciting. So we've got December 9th for the Irish Christmas Yep, and then, of course, next year we can talk about the same conference coming up.
Speaker 7:And the joint Keith getting Greg Thomas' birthday party.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, that's going to be a smash, because, in fact, I'm going to start advertising that right after the podcast. So, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 7:He was doubting Thomas.
Speaker 2:All right, enough of that, lord willing, we'll both live to see 2024. Let's get to our audience with their questions.
Speaker 7:I'm sitting talking about dating on 16th of December.
Speaker 2:All right, let's go to Ben in Connecticut.
Speaker 8:Yeah, I'd love to just ask you what your definition of a hymn is. Besides the message, primarily being the gospel, I feel like most hymns have a certain sound to them as well. What do you define it as? Yeah, you know what?
Speaker 7:The short answer is it's not like animal evils, woman. There isn't a scientific difference and multiple define it differently. I just honestly, our songs got. People went. When they heard in Christlin, they went this is more like hymns, this isn't like worship songs. So they just could call modern hymns by other people. It wasn't I didn't like to find a brand and do it, it was just people called them that.
Speaker 7:I would say hymns, historically, were put together by the church pastors. They tended to be, for example, hymn books. You tended to pick a hymn because it would last for the duration of the hymnals. So they tended to be songs that were more timeless in nature and they were always about the body of people singing. It wasn't about you don't finish and go.
Speaker 7:How did we perform today? It was like, how did the congregation sing? So I think those emphasis in theology in slightly more timelessness and in very congregationality to a degree that you can sing them in your homes as well. You know, you know amazing grace and Jesus loves me, not because of the number of times you sang it in church, but because of the number of times it was sung around your house as well, and over years and years and years, and also the fact that it was repeated over years and years and years and years. So I think that's. I don't try to wave. I don't try to wave hymn good, worship song bad or prayer song bad. I've no sense of that, but just that we should have aimed towards that. I hope that's an okay answer, ben.
Speaker 8:Great answer, thank you.
Speaker 7:Thanks.
Speaker 2:It's much like a lot of the Christmas carols we sing today as well, you know, we continue to sing them because they you know there is a message. But then we've been singing them over and over, even Rudolph the retinals right there, even though there's no message.
Speaker 7:Funny story. Funny story. Funny story Keith Green. Remember the early Christian musician Keith Green? Yes, you know, he, he, he and his wife Melody. They were obviously saved from a Jewish background so they had no Christian experience. And someone once had an favorite in the Christmas I've written a hymn and she didn't know what a hymn was and they said what's a hymn? And they went it's kind of like a Christmas carol. So there's a redeemer, was their attempt at a Christmas carol. Do you believe that Isn't that cool.
Speaker 2:Oh wow, yeah, here we go. All right, let's go to Cheryl in New Jersey. Hey, cheryl.
Speaker 11:Yeah, hello. When you were, let's say, younger, did you like? How did you always love hymns, like you know, let's say before you went into, I guess, full-time music ministry. I know you said you grew up in the Presbyterian background. I went to a Presbyterian church too. That's not the only thing, but was it something where you were listening to one thing and then suddenly or at some point you liked hymns, or did you just always kind of gravitate toward?
Speaker 7:You know I grew up. I grew up with a mixture of everything. I was a classical musician, so that sort of very high church thing was my classical music. Sunday morning was traditional hymns at our church with the organ and Sunday evening was gospel songs with the piano and then the youth group was praise songs. Do you know what I mean? Praise, worship songs. So I lived kind of in the four worlds and so, yeah, I think there's a couple of answers to that.
Speaker 7:I think it's really important for all of us, as parents and as leaders, to give the next generation a taste for deep songs, because if you love the Lord, you want to know him deeply, and great songs do that, can do that. So in a culture where we've been fed a lot of silly songs that aren't songs, that just aren't very deep, I think we want to be cultivating a taste. I think it's a very, very, really good question. So I think we need to make the effort to do that and sometimes, like giving my daughters medicine last week when she didn't want to eat medicine, you have to put it in sugar and candy. So if the language of your church is a certain worship leader or a CCM, for example, you find a hymn recording by a CCM artist or you do a hymn that works well in a black gospel style or whatever, and you find ways to do it that way, but I think it's important for us to so.
Speaker 7:To answer your question number one, I grew up with every kind of music but I was able to cultivate from my early age an appreciation for great hymns. Secondly, I think we have to all of us have to make the effort as leaders to love our children enough to care for this, one of the big weaknesses of the post-World War II or certainly post-1980 Christian churches. Until about 1980, pastors were really involved in the songs or congregations sang. Now, sometimes they could be. We all know pastors can not be the easiest to work with, but they were involved. But why? Because they loved their congregation enough to care about what they sang.
Speaker 7:Yeah yeah, my fear is, in the last 40 years, pastors have almost used music like a marketing tool, and so if one style or one team become expendable or we move them on, we want them to entertain, to warm the congregation up, and great music is attractive, but at the same time, you need to love your congregation and your kids enough to have them singing great songs. We don't want them being discipled by Taylor Swift, as talented as she is, and we don't want them being the way. We want them feeding on their Sunday on songs that are just saying if you have a positive, unrelated ideas about the Lord, yeah, yeah, very good, thank you.
Speaker 7:Thank you. Thank you for the question.
Speaker 2:I think if you guys and this is for our listeners as well if you haven't looked into attending the Sing Conference, you need to look into that for 2024. I think it'll bless you tremendously. You will hear the gospel preached, sang, and the two come together in a way that's not generally done in your typical morning Sunday morning service. So Sing Conference is a great opportunity for you. All right, let's go to Alan in New York. Alan.
Speaker 10:Good afternoon. So it's not a question, but I know you said I could like more of a kind of a conversation question. You mentioned in something that you were saying about a friend who had lost their daughter and then didn't feel like singing, you know, and probably through the morning and stuff like that. But then you also mentioned that we're created to sing right. And then you also and it kind of reminded me because I had recently lost my mom and there's like these droughts, that kind of come in. You know that kind of like your feelings right, like your feelings can be like like thump. You know a little bit.
Speaker 10:You know to open up your mouth and what I noticed that what helps me and what always helps me, you know not just the hands, but it's probably throwing on the songs that I kind of grew up with under great Thomas and you know various other worship people like Fred Hammond and stuff like that, and but I do notice that I think my first introduction to him I'm probably the youngest person coming to Christ on this panel as far as when I came to Christ was when great, you know, at Times Square Church, used to pull out the piano in the middle of the stage and then do the hymns and then explain why that hymn was wrote.
Speaker 10:You know what caused that hymn to be written. I think that made it more attractive to me, you know, and I think that and it just kind of made me realize, like, you know, like there's a testimony of what a person went through and why they're singing, you know, but I find that you don't really hear the hymns. You know like too much anymore in the churches much, and I find that you know, it's almost like taking out, you know, the root of why we still do what we do. You know, and I just want to know your thoughts about that.
Speaker 7:Sure, I think there might have been four questions there, but I think it's largely singing about suffering and singing into suffering and the reality of human life and the loss of a hymn emphasis. So let me tackle it. Let me say two or three things. First of all, interesting things. The church's hymn book, primarily for most of 20 centuries certainly 19, certainly 18 centuries was the Bible's hymn book which is called the Psalms. And in the Psalms we have a God who is holy, who is awesome, who is terrifying, who is a creator, who is our shepherd, who is our friend, who delights in our praises and is longing to forgive even the most wicked of sinners. And we've got human. But we've also got a God who's intensely interested in compassion. We've a God who is deeply moved by justice and has no time for the unjust. We have a God who is mysterious and can't always be explained and we have to bow before His holy. And we have a God who is omnipresent and sees everything we do, everything we think, everything we look at in our computer and everything that we feel about other people who have somehow stolen our doughnut in life. We also have a God who loves, loves with me, who asks us to sing and celebrate and shout and dance and play and play excellently and play loudly but also a God who is silent, who is wanting us to lament, to repent, to weep, to mourn and to turn on the unbended knee in worship to Him.
Speaker 7:And the modern version of Christianity in worship usually I say usually does not incorporate that breadth. When they use the Psalms, it tends to be happy verses rather than the whole picture that the Psalms gave. Most churches couldn't actually read most of the Psalms in their worship service because it would be so awkward or jarring to them. Because it's too. Do you know why? Because it's too real, it's too much really like what life is. It has the anger and the unfairness. It has the lack of justice and the lack of love for the oppressed. And so we? There's something wrong if our church worship services don't look like the Book of Psalms.
Speaker 7:The second thing is it's not just in our music. Many of our preachers try to almost impress on Christianity, turn Christianity into a part of positive thinking, kind of self-help, self-management, kind of faith, and take sin out of it. When you take sin out of it, it is not Christianity. I guarantee you, for every self-help Christian talk, so-called Christian talk, you get Oprah or somebody else can offer you something better. You know Oprah or the moments or Elon Musk or something. Somebody will offer you something better.
Speaker 7:Christianity is at the heart, is a story of God becoming, becoming man, to die for our sins, to rise and conquer the grave and to return to this world to give all of our lives, every day, every moment, every step by step, a direction towards that final moment when all of history will wrap up. So I think that's the hope that I have and that's the hope I want to sing about. When we look at the book of Revelation, the song that they're singing is the song of the blood of the Lamb, where we'll all stand before Him. That's the center of our story. So if our stories, if our worship services don't include the gospel and they don't include an honest view of the actual God of the Bible, not the kind of the Santa Claus evangelical version that sometimes is paraded and this kind of the Disney life that it tries to throw around, but if we're away from the gospel and away from the Psalms, it's not actually authentic Christianity. And the irony is people try to do that to make Christianity softer and easier and I think it just makes it look less authentic, less sincere and actually in the end, offers people nothing.
Speaker 7:We had friends, we had my wife's cousins, a lovely family, but they started getting involved in churches that were very light, just not I'm not going to describe them too much but there was a lack of substance in the churches and lots and lots of contemporary songs that changed every week and she got cancer of the brain and was taken from us at the age of 22. She was a beautiful girl. She'd been to Africa to work and start to build water for little villages. She was a model, she was beautiful and the Lord took her at 22, and we'll never know why. We'll never know why. But when it came to her funeral, it was all hymns and I said why. I'm a bit surprised, if you don't mind me saying it. I was so surprised. The hymn choices and they went yeah, this is too serious for us to sing worship songs. That was cool.
Speaker 7:Now, in one sense, I get it.
Speaker 7:In one sense I get it. The Bible is very clear. There are seasons for celebrating and seasons for mourning. There's every season of life, but I think if the worship service we have is not preparing us for death, in the same way, as the preaching we're doing is not preparing us for death, then it's not preparing us for life, right? So I think that's really important.
Speaker 7:And finally, I would say, when it comes to people your other question was people who just when you don't feel like singing, I think we just need pastoral sensitivity and to love people. It's such an emotional thing, but that we have to know what we can sing. Don't forget 50 of the 150 Psalms were laments. Life is not supposed to be good all the time, so I'd encourage you to sing into the gospel, sing into the Bible's laments, pray those laments and know that, as we gradually do over time, that the Lord brings us a wonderful healing and a wonderful sense of redemption in every part of life. That's all I got my heart's breaking so much from a friend. Right now I don't feel like I'm the most biggest expert I've been able to help teach.
Speaker 2:That was very powerful. Right there as you were speaking, keith, I was thinking some 137. By the rivers of Babylon. There we sat.
Speaker 2:You talk about a condition and a state of people who were so far from their homeland and so far from all of the things that they were familiar with in life. Now they've got none of that, to the point where now we're hanging up our hearts, we can't even sing. How shall I sing the Lord's song on a strange land? You talk about being broken and talk about being destitute and marginalized and enslaved. But yet I think today there has to be something in us, just like you said. There has to be something in us that and I say this often that causes us to refuse to hang up our hearts during those difficult times. It is well with my soul was written. You talk about your friend having lost a daughter. Some of the greatest hymns we've ever known, we know today we're written out of very tragic situations. It is well with my soul very similar story. Being able to sing or worship through the battle is crucial for the believer. Welcome to the quiet blue.
Speaker 2:All right, we're going to hear from Angel in Pennsylvania.
Speaker 6:First of all, thank you so very much for being with us today. Earlier, you were talking about being careful not to be a bully in terms of inspiring congregational singing, because what I find is worshipers, we enjoy worshiping and I always thought there's always a song for every emotion and so. But when you have congregation members that kind of appear to be spectating and it just may be that not everyone is musically driven, you have any advice?
Speaker 7:No, it's a great question. So the question is so were commanded to sing, very good, but what happens if somebody hits singing or they're rubbish at singing or they don't feel like singing? I think you know, I think it's a. I think I think the first thing I have about advice is, as a leader, I would help the congregation know that we sing because we're commanded to sing and you know, like anything else, we can tell them that a hundred different ways, a hundred different times. That's what I'm finding. That's what I'm finding with my daughters. When I try to teach them stuff, I don't tell them something once and they go oh hold on, let me just. Let me just put that in my computer and press save and then change my whole heart. That's not really how it works. So it's something we have to keep reminding them. You know. So you know, of course the Lord has commanded us to sing, and I don't know about you, but there's some days I don't feel like singing, but the Lord has commanded me to, so I've had to check my own heart Some days. Let's listen to what God's word says. It says we need to come out and sing. That's to everyone, that's to the people in the congregation. You know who are, you know. You know, you know who are are into opera, and for the people in the congregation who are into the jets Do you know what I mean? It doesn't really matter, it's that's, that's, that's the, that's the, the command of this other times.
Speaker 7:But I think there's also an onus in us to choose songs that are whole congregation can sing so melodically, and and also, I'd say I'd say be especially careful of the songs you start with. You know. So you know, you know, think about it. Think about it in life. I mean. Art is an interesting thing. I think I'm Burmese culture. Recently, in Burmese culture, the word for art and the word for life is still the same word. Do you know what I mean? They don't change the word.
Speaker 7:But you know, if you're inviting your family for Christmas, you know how do you, how do you welcome them all in. You know, here's my uncle from Arkansas and here's my and here's my cousins from from Maine. Okay, that's, that's in the front door. Start a conversation about politics. That's the best way to make this really welcoming, peaceful, kind of not in a million years. Do you know what I mean? So we find ways to warm people up, and so we're, we're being family. We're not actually starting a concert, we're actually welcoming family into the home. So let's find ways to do that well, but again, I think also a little bit of teaching this is where the pastor's not preaching about congregational singing is cost us. So I'd encourage your pastor to preach about it.
Speaker 7:That's the, that's another thing I would really say at the end of the day, at the end of the day, the biggest thing about family singing and congregational singing and this might sound I hope this doesn't sound wrong guys, I hope it doesn't sound sexist, it's not meant that way. But in my experience, when daddy doesn't sing, nobody sings. You can say that about family and you can say that about church. If the senior pastor loves his people praising, the church, love to praise, if daddy sings, the whole family sing. If daddy does not sing, mommy maybe sings, maybe two of the daughters sing, the sons don't that kind of. But that's that is. You know, that kind of thing is important.
Speaker 7:But also I think it's important to realize why do we sing? Well, we sing first of all because we're commanded. We sing because we're. We sing because God is worthy of praise. He is more worthy of praise than the Yankees. He's more worthy of praise than our biggest victories. Yeah, you know. And if the people around us see us not that excited about it, that's not saying something, that is screaming something you know, and so we've got to help them understand that. But, and even more than that, we're not just singing because of what it does for God and it does for us, but it's being family. So I'm singing because the person three year olds in front of me might be, might be caught in a hopeless addiction, or might be going through a season of doubt, or might have been brought up in the church but never come to believe, and I'm singing for them too. Do you know what I mean? So we're singing to each other. It's part of our expression as family. I don't know if any of those things help.
Speaker 2:Oh, that resonates with me. I'm sure it resonates with all of our callers. Let's go to Chris and New City. Chris Cruz, how are?
Speaker 8:you. Hey, I'm doing fine. How you doing? Don't form. Did I meet you once at the church?
Speaker 8:Uh, probably, probably. I've known. Greg has known me since I was 12. So, yeah, he's known me for a while. Okay, good to see you, chris. Good to see you too. I got a quick question. I was just thinking about you know what you were talking about earlier about church worship. Now, reddit statistic where it said like 70 to 80% of the songs and this was a poll that was done across hundreds of churches across the country 70 to 80% of the songs that churches do in their worship are done by three artists Elevation, maverick and Bethel. And I don't I don't, I don't have anything against them. I actually love many of their songs. But my question is do you think it would benefit churches to write more of their own music for their congregations?
Speaker 7:It's a great question. It's a great question Of the top 500 songs sung in America. There are a number of dominant groups and our organization getting music is 36 of them. So we're, we're, we're. We're not as strong as they are, but we're, we're. We participate a lot in that and but, but. Again, ours tends to be for very different demographic.
Speaker 7:I think we have to ask a number of questions, don't we? So I think the primary question is what is a healthy diet for our congregation? I think that's a better place to start rather than let's not, let's not necessarily criticize other people. So what's a healthy diet for our congregation? Well, I'd suggest, I'd suggest personally we need to sing songs that are deep about the Lord and that we can carry with us for life, not exclusively. If you decide that should be 30% or 50% or 70% or 80%, that's entirely clear, fine. But I would start there and say what are the hymns? We want them to know Are you slated or local church? We just go to the local church here. We're not, we're not kind of mega church guys, we just go to the local church. It was a really good youth group and youth leader has this thing that there's 50 hymns. He wants all the kids to know before they leave for college, which I think is a great rule of thumb. Now, when you've got 50 great hymns that you sing when you're 16 year olds, know things like and can it be, and these kinds of hymns and Hark the Herald Angel saying that, but great hymns of the faith, when I survey the wondrous cross, when they know these kinds of hymns, you know that's a great start they have in their devotional life and their personal prayer life. And so I'd start there. I would say what do we want to do, rather than let's have a fight with Elevation or Beth or Hillsonger, whatever I'm sure you want to do first and then ask what songs work along. That I mean, I would say it was a side note.
Speaker 7:I would say two things to consider. If those churches theology doesn't match your church's theology, then there is a awkward dysfunction that's going to happen. You know what I mean. So just be. Or even if that is not something that's wrong but just a bizarre shift in influence. Do you know what I mean? So, for example, if your pastor is saying that is preaching against sin, but you don't sing a single worship song that mentions the word sin for six weeks. That's actually creating a very unhealthy dysfunction in your life. It will be the equivalent of me two weeks ago going to my dietician and she's saying you got to lose four pounds, keith. Then I go off to these three hotels and go to like eight parties in 10 days and come back and go hey, I didn't lose my four pounds and she's going well, keith. There's reasons for that, because what's actually going in is not what we discussed, it was not the theory that we discussed. So anyway, but so I think that's the good thing.
Speaker 7:I think also, you know, I think you know, I had this conversation with a friend of mine who's pastor of two black churches in Chicago, and we both come from an interesting point of view. I come from a British church point of view, he comes from a historical black church point of view and that is the modern worship movement is not very diverse. There's largely a bunch of people between the age of 35 and 55 who all live in one of six wealthy suburbs of Western cities, your six Western cities Sydney, california, charlotte, nashville, atlanta and Dallas and almost the quarters of the songs are coming from people written in suburbs. Not even in those cities, they're not even living city life like you guys are. They're living suburban life. They're between 35 and 55. They're wealthy and in wealthy areas, and they're writing short songs that could work on the radio, which is really targeted at a largely brought up Christian female audience, and that is becoming your whole worship diet.
Speaker 7:Well, so my friend in Chicago argues where are the songs about justice? Where are the songs that weep for the lost? Where are the songs that are centered in Christ's blood as our hope? And I'm asking the same questions about you know, where are the things that we understand and we believed about God, that we learned in our catechisms? They've all disappeared out of worship songs. You know, why wouldn't I join a cult? Why wouldn't I? There's no, there's absolutely no reason but from those water worship songs that I shouldn't join a cult tomorrow, because there's nothing that is specifically enough Christian or gospel for me to sing. So just a few thoughts.
Speaker 2:Very good, very good. We're going back to New Jersey. Cheryl has a follow up.
Speaker 11:I wanted you, if you would please repeat your comment about it, because I want to make sure I captured it correctly. If the preaching is not preparing us for death and is not preparing us for life, is that close to that's correct? That's correct.
Speaker 7:If the preaching and the singing is not preparing us for death, it's not preparing us for life. The ground that we stand on as you walk out in a street in New York today, the ground that we stand on between this life and eternity, is a tissue, and if there's anything the last two weeks has taught me, it's a tissue. You know what I mean. I sat with my friend in Rocky's. We did a gig together. He's a very successful musician, very humble guy. He's Asian guy, wonderful guy, korean origin, and we talked about raising daughters and he said you know, I've been so blessed by two daughters. We both love the Lord, they're both wonderful musicians, they're both in their 20s and they've never had any health issues. And three weeks later I sat beside him as he was buried and she was 23 years old. And, yeah, I mean there's some wonderful quotes and I wish I had them here now. But if you believe Christianity is true, eternity is very long and this is a small moment on earth. We have to live for the glory of our creator, and so I'd encourage you in the song, sing what's important, sing the things that are really valuable. Yeah, yeah, sing about Christ being the hope for life and death, because I actually believe that. I think it doesn't matter if I believe it, if you don't sing something. That's not true.
Speaker 7:There was a 19th century Scottish politician that said I don't wish to write the laws of my nation. It was very successful, very effective. And he was asked about how does it feel to have written the laws of your nation and his response was I do not wish to write the laws of my nation. If I could have only written their songs. Because he understood that songs go to the heart and they go to our minds and they go to our memories and what is sung becomes what is prayed, and what is prayed becomes what is felt, and what is felt becomes what is lived. And if we actually think we can sing songs that lessen eternity and lessen sin and forgiveness and resurrection and hope that we can actually live as people here living for another world, I think we're deluded.
Speaker 11:Yes, thank you so much.
Speaker 7:Thank you for your question.
Speaker 11:Yeah, and I would say this, and I don't mean this to be flattering, but I was in, as most of us, we either in the choir or in the music ministry, and we had many songs that were that really spoke about the realities of you know trusting God in hard times, or you know when the unexpected happens. What was the song Greg used to lead oh my Lord, I still have a praise and it talks about when the last thing you may want to do, or find very hard to do, is to sing. You know, through whatever made you know situations of life. So I really appreciate that. Now, the other question I wanted to ask is because you it's not a bot question, but my this. If it's goofy, then you can just shut me down anytime.
Speaker 11:Handles Messiah to write something that powerful, you know, straight scriptural in many times. Do you happen to know if, because at that time that's what people you know, the great, you know, composers of that time wrote a lot of things that were very scriptural? Were they actually people who believed, you know? Wasn't more or less the style like this is what we do? This is you know? Or were they actually people who followed Christ and, of course, had this?
Speaker 7:great question you know talent yeah.
Speaker 7:So to answer the question about Bach, bach was a very passionate believer. He believes if you're going to write music, you should also write theology, and he studied theology. You're going to put theological books as well. And at the end of he began every day with a phrase that was Yezu Yuve, which was Jesus, help me. As he started the day, and at the bottom of every manuscript here at the end of every day, before he finished and went back to his 12 kids, whatever it was, he wrote solely day of glory to God with the glory. What a wonderful thing, as we start every day, if we could write Jesus help me. And finish every day before we retire to our bedroom and go solely day of glory. May this glorify me in every note and every. So I can't answer the question and handle it because I just don't know.
Speaker 7:I do think, I do think, you know, music has a great opportunity to speak into our culture. I would encourage people to take the scriptures and set it to music. I think the Lord can work through that. Only the Lord has worked through that in marvelous ways. And again, that's the common grace of the Lord giving us, giving us gifted people in so many areas. It was in the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York last last Wednesday, I think the last Thursday and and there's some wonderful religious artwork that was not painted by Christians but it was so deeply moving so also thank you very much.
Speaker 7:Thank you for the questions. Yes, there will be a choir in New York City on the center of December. Somebody just asked.
Speaker 2:So yes, all says that several hundred people in that choir. So, again, you can get more information by going to getemusiccom. Kate, thanks for being such a blessing to us here in the choir room and give our regards to Kristin and the family To our listeners. Remember December 9th 2023, singing Irish Christmas at Carnegie Hall in New York City. And again, if you want discount tickets, you can reach out to the choir room at MetroMusicDashArtscom. Again, email the choir room at MetroMusicDashArtscom and remember, if ever we put the message in before the message, we have failed to present an unblemished gospel. I'm Greg Thomas. I'll see you again right here next week here in the choir room.
