The Choir Room Podcast
This podcast exists to promote and encourage two long-time traditions in our society that seem to be dwindling…The Choir and Corporate Singing. We hope to revive the excitement and joy experienced with singing in a choir, as well as inform and educate the listener on all things singing, and all things choir related.
A weekly podcast featuring discussion and interviews with choir directors, choir members, and other guests representing church choirs, college and university choirs, community choirs, show and theatre choirs, composer of choir music, and other.
Segments include tips and instruction from skilled and professional disciplines within the choir community covering topics such as choir culture and community, choir directing, vocal training, ear training, sight reading, and more. A monthly virtual live audience episode allows the listener to engage with hosts and guests during instructional and Q&A segments via the live recording, chat, email, on various social media platforms.
A production of Metromusic & Arts, Inc.
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The Choir Room Podcast
A Dive Into the Church Choir Journey of Tammy Williams and The Deep Spiritual Significance of Singing with Elizabeth Norfrey.
Prepare for an enlightening journey as we uncover profound parallels between the art of singing and living a vibrant Christian life. Promising soul-stirring revelations, vocal instructor Elizabeth Norfrey unveils the similarities of air in both singing and spiritual life. Dorian delivers another though provoking commentary on the hymn "More Love to Thee O' Christ".
In the heart of this episode, we explore how churches can unlock greater musical excellence, encourage professional musicians and value the power of all types of singers. As we navigate these discussions, you'll discover strategies to strengthen your church's music program. Our guest contributor, Tammy Williams, a worship leader, solo artist, and a passionate musician, shares her choir experiences that span from her father's family group to college, and how these rich experiences have fueled the growth of her church choir.
Bringing a fresh perspective on revitalizing church choirs and school ensembles, we touch on the methods used by Tammy to infuse new life into her schools' gospel choir. Her vibrant personality acts as a catalyst, fostering a deeper understanding of praise and worship within her church choir. We then explore the art of song selection for churches with multiple choirs, and then wrapping up with "The Thought of the Week" with Coleman Smart. Don't miss this unique intertwining of melody and faith.
https://www.davidneliz.com/
https://www.paracletecollaborative.com/
Perpetuating and Promoting the Christian and Positive Idea Through the Medium of Music and Other Arts.
Welcome to the choir room, season 1, episode 23 of the Choir Room Podcast.
Speaker 3:Welcome to the choir room.
Speaker 1:I'm Greg Thomas, your host, and I'll soon be joined by my co-host, Dorian Johnson. Welcome to the choir room. Vietta Stansu, Pharaa, and who we like to call the fourth wheel, Coleman Smart. If you haven't subscribed to this podcast already, you really need to do so or you're going to miss out on some very important things coming up in the next few months. You can subscribe anywhere that you get your podcast and do share it with any of your singing buddies or your choir friends, and when you do that, be sure to give us a five-star review and your comments, as they are welcomed and appreciated. You can also leave your comments and join the new conversations happening on our Facebook page, the Choir Room. And finally, if you want to ensure that you are informed of all things choir room related beyond the podcast, be sure to send the words subscribe to the Choir Room at MetroMusic-Artcom. That is the best way to stay in the know of all things choir room related, and that includes gifts, prizes and surprises.
Speaker 1:On last week, in episode 22, we had the privilege of having David and Elizabeth Norfrey here in the choir room and they shared quite a few nuggets from their musical experience and journey. Here's more of that conversation that didn't get aired on episode 22. Elizabeth, you mentioned the importance of healthy vocal technique and the similarities between that and a fruitful Christian life. Talk to us a bit about that.
Speaker 4:Right? Well, so the air is essential. Air is essential to life and air is essential to singing. So everything just and the parallel with the spiritual life is that Ruach, that Holy Spirit is what, that's the gas in the car that empowers us to live our Christian life. But the air is the essential, that's the most important, in some ways most important part of the instrument.
Speaker 4:Because you know, if, because the air comes up, the vocal cords, which are muscle right in the throat, the vocal cords vibrate, but if they're pushed together and if they're operating on their own strength, being forced, then you're going to get strain, you're going to get tension. But if the air comes up and allows the vocal cords to vibrate, then the tone is free to resonate through the, you know, the sinus cavities, through all the resonators of our head. And so I had this revelation one day. This is so much like the Christian life, this is like the Holy Spirit comes. This is we yield and allow the air to move, and then there's fruit, then there's the fruit is allowed to resonate, and when a voice is resonant, the voice can be loud. But if a voice is resonant like an opera singer can hit the back of the room with no problem, because the opera singer knows how to wake up those resonators so that the sound is the sympathetic vibrations are going through the sinus cavities and then out through through the head and creating, you know, high frequencies and all of that. So so it's amazing what the human voice can do and it is so important to pay attention to what's going on with the management of the breath.
Speaker 4:And I know a lot of teachers have different opinions on you know, just allow it to be what it is. But I think we have to be very focused on what our muscles are doing in terms of using that air and allowing that air to empower, to come up, and so so using that air, using these muscles down here as a bellows, and our focus should be here, and really we shouldn't really be feeling much of anything in the throat, so that it's free, the air is free to do the moving of the cords, like I said, and and that we're not like taking control of it in any way. So it's just a parable. And then, of course, you know the tongue. The Bible talks about the tongue as a muscle.
Speaker 4:It's not the largest muscle, but I've heard it said that it's the most powerful muscle in the body because it you know, gets the most practice from the time we start eating, you know it gets the most practice, and so it's a very it's a very powerful, and so it needs to be tamed, just like spiritually it needs to be tamed, it needs to be relaxed, you know it needs to be properly positioned, properly positioned to make beautiful vowel shapes and things like that. So so they're just a lot of parallels.
Speaker 1:That's some good information and you can get more of it from David and Elizabeth at Davidinelizcom that's David letter. In ELIZcom and at Paracletecollaborativecom You'll find more information about the services that they provide and you can look forward to more helpful nuggets from them in the coming weeks. And stick around, because our guest contributor today is a worship leader. Choir director, musician and solo artist. Tammy Williams will be joining us today right here in the choir room.
Speaker 5:Welcome to the choir room.
Speaker 2:Dorian has our hymn of the week. Thanks, greg. This week's hymn of the week is More Love to the O Christ. Elizabeth Payson Prentice wrote this hymn and while gifted with writing stories and poems, she knew much pain in her life. Her father died of tuberculosis when she was nine, and four years later she would be converted to Christ. In 1845 she would marry George Louis Prentice, and by 1852 she had lost two of her three children. One is a newborn and one at age four. However, she went on to have three more healthy children, despite her own poor health. While the hymn would be published in 1869, it is believed that in 1856 she penned the lyrics to this hymn after she nearly lost her daughter to an illness.
Speaker 2:The hymn's refrain is a plea for more love to be given to Christ. And as we consider all that Christ has given to us in setting aside the glory of heaven and humbling himself by adding a human nature to his divine nature, coming to this earth and walking completely obedient to God's law while being reviled by those he created and then suffering the humiliation of the cross and bearing the just wrath of God in the place of sinners, should not our response be an offering of our love to God. But this hymn indicates the tension of the Christian life in that while we love God, we do not love him as fully as we are. So this hymn truly is a declaration of the Christian's desire to love God more. Verse one we read the lyrics More love to thee, o Christ, more love to thee. Here thou the prayer I make on bended knee. This is my earnest plea. More love, o Christ, to thee, more love to thee, more love to thee. Verse two the hymn writer reminds us of what our life before Christ was like when we read Once earthly joy I crave, sought peace and rest. And now that we are in Christ we can truly say Now, thee alone I seek, give what is best. This all my prayer shall be more love, o Christ, to thee, more love to thee, more love. This is my earnest plea.
Speaker 2:Verse three points us to the work of trials and difficult circumstances in the life of the Christian to increase our trust and dependence on the. Lord Says Let sorrow do its work, send grief and pain. Sweet are thy messengers, sweet they refrain when they can sing with me. More love, o Christ, to thee, more love to thee, more love to thee. And, as many hymns point us ultimately to the fact that we will all come face to face with the Lord, and unless he tarries, unless he returns, and if he tarries, we will all die and we will all come to see him face to face through death.
Speaker 2:And so the last verse says Then shall my latest breath whisper thy praise. This be the parting cry. My heart shall raise this still. Its prayer shall be more love, o Christ to thee, more love to thee, more love to thee. In Deuteronomy 6.5 we read you shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, with all your soul and with all your might. Because of our sin, we, who have even been redeemed by the Lord, cannot love him as we love him. But with this hymn give voice to our desire to love God more today and to seek to love him more each day, more than the last.
Speaker 3:O Christ to thee, more love to thee.
Speaker 1:Welcome to the quiet room. Beedah is going to challenge us again with another CRQ.
Speaker 6:Thanks, greg. Tonight is our usual CRQ and tonight we have the question how can the church make the professional singer more welcomed about their profession? How can the church make the professional singer more welcomed about their profession? I will say this this question kind of stumped me for a second because I wasn't sure. I wasn't sure professional meaning what type of music exactly that I'm thinking that the church would frown on. You know like what kind of? I had to put on my thinking cap for a second of what this was really about here, what the backstory to this question was, and thinking about it.
Speaker 6:And when you say professional singer, it's so interesting because there's some professional gospel singers and then their professional secular singers and I immediately in that went to the secular world because I don't know, maybe y'all can correct me on this I'm hoping that there's no gospel music. That just would not be totally unacceptable in the church. I really want to believe that. I know a lot of singers who do both and who attend churches. They do. They don't necessarily sing in the, maybe the clubs or the bars, but they do sing in areas where it's.
Speaker 6:They don't sing gospel music, it secular, inspirational music, whatever it is they put to it now, whatever the the adjectives that they put to the music now, but they also function in their churches as well and the churches seem to what I do know. The churches seem to be okay with what it is they do. I have not encountered a situation where the church did not accept them in their profession. Maybe you guys had, so I couldn't really speak to the church not being more welcome. I can only say that I've never seen that happen, but maybe, again, you guys have probably viewed this or have experienced this so what say you?
Speaker 2:as the country boy always says, context is everything.
Speaker 3:Yes, right.
Speaker 2:And my mind actually immediately went to an interest of mine, which is opera. And you think of a professional opera singer who comes into a choir and just by their training, their voice overpowers other people. Their people feel intimidated singing with them because they know that they are trained professionally. And so I think it's just one of those things where, if you have a different style, or coming into a choir that maybe sings music that's of a different genre than your profession, that you have to realize that you may have to and this is something that we discussed before you may have to adjust what you're doing, especially with opera. You're out there, typically You're trying to belt over a full orchestra and everything else, and in a choir setting you're supposed to be blending in with others. And so that's where my mind went, actually, because I have heard and even have seen instances where just opera singers have struggled in choir situations because of just their training and the strength of their voice.
Speaker 3:I think there are so many different ways of interpreting this question, so whoever asked maybe will hit what you meant by that.
Speaker 1:I thought you were going to say call us and tell us what you really meant. Well, you could do that. You could do that.
Speaker 3:But between the five of us maybe we'll hit the actual thing that you're talking about, Mieta. I have been in some environments that are very protective of their platform, that if someone is a professional musician and they play in contexts that aren't honoring to God sometimes it's like in bars or in clubs or then they might make well, let's just say they probably won't be playing on a regular bassist because of that aspect of their professional life. And I've seen some churches make their platform a mission field sometimes. So you never know. I've seen some people say, well, this is how we're going to connect them to Jesus. So I don't know. It depends on, again, the leadership of your pastoral team and where your heart is.
Speaker 3:But the way that I first interpreted this question, I thought about a professional musician coming into our church's service for the first time. I think the best way to immediately make a professional musician feel welcome is to have excellent music, music that is not lacking in practice and preparation. But when a professional walks in, they can say, oh, these people really care about this. They care about this as much as I care about this Sometimes. There's a place for me here, because a lot of times churches will pander to the vast majority of the congregation who is not musically savvy, who they don't have a degree, they don't have a lot of training, and they'll get them.
Speaker 3:That's about 90% of people. But there's that 10% of people who know what's going on, who have the degrees, have sung inquires, that kind of thing, and a lot of times we think, oh, we've got the 90%, we're doing fine. But if you strive for excellence and you have an excellent music program, you get that 10% and all 90% that come behind them too. So I think it's important to create an environment where professional musicians know that what's going on on the platform, that we take it seriously, Because I feel like that connects them more. If I was as a professional musician, if I walked into a church where I felt like they don't take their music and their ministry seriously, then I probably wouldn't be as inclined to stick around. So that was where my mind went first.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think there are a number of things in this question and again I think all of us will hit on something that the writer can take away. But when I hear how can the church be more receptive? It is a blanket statement and it unfortunately is not fair to the church at large. I think the question probably is being more directed to the people in leadership in the music ministry or even people in the choir, where those more personal experiences may have happened and so we can't say the church is not receptive. In fact, when it comes to gospel music or church choirs in particular, my experience and my opinion is that the church has been a little too receptive over the years and accepting and allowing any and everybody, and so there's been a big demand and a big push on talent and not enough demand on righteousness, accountability and excellence, and I think the spirit of excellence is a result of the first two, the righteousness and accountability. So we have to have those things.
Speaker 1:Now to Dorian's point. I think the expectation of the professional singer might be levied upon the church that it responds the same way that the theater or the club or the wedding party does, and that's just not the case. There are plenty of Christian musicians and singers who perform outside of the church, but the expectation in terms of being receptive may not be fair to the church, because the world responds differently. They're looking for something different, you know, and so we're talking two different things. So the presentation of the music then has to be different from that which you do somewhere else, otherwise you're not as professional as you thought you were. Oh, and I don't mean that in a negative. I just mean that professional singer is going to know what to expect from that choir or from that church, and they're not going to levy the expectations in terms of the response to their singing on the church choir or on the church congregation.
Speaker 6:There you have it.
Speaker 1:Well, I think it's more about realistic expectations from the professional singer than it is the church not being more receptive. Now I've said this many times, and you guys can testify to this, that way too often the church has acted out of its desperation to have a thriving music ministry and therefore have chosen talent over character, and it has just caused a mess in a lot of congregations. And so when the church pursues talent over righteousness and accountability, and character and excellence, it goes back to that statement that I always use when we close out this podcast, if ever, we put the messenger before the message, and that's what many churches, unfortunately, have done with their church choirs.
Speaker 3:Well, I think it's important to note maybe ministries, platform ministries or whatever have maybe been too receptive. I don't know. I mean, yeah, we always need to be receptive, but when it comes to sharing our platform, that, yeah, that's.
Speaker 6:So you know, so I'm listening to you all on and I something really weird just popped in my head attitude, the word attitude popped in my head and when you're dealing sometimes I now have encountered this like there's a person who may come into a particular group who is a professional singer, might have done a little more than many of us have. Their attitude when they came into that particular group, well, let's just say they were foul right. So it did not, it didn't mix well with the others because they had the, they had the understanding that I'm doing more than you. You know, I've been in places that you have not been. And when they came in with that attitude, those of them who were already in place and doing, and you know, sacrificing and doing all of that kind of Sean on a level, you know, because the attitude of that particular professional singer and they were a professional singer just wasn't something that they wanted to be a part of.
Speaker 6:So I also, I believe that you can be a professional singer, but then there's a particular specific attitude you need to have when you're coming into a setting that doesn't necessarily know who you are and may not know in entirety what you're capable of, because just because you say you're a professional singer, it really doesn't mean a whole lot to us unless you start to show improvement. But if your attitude is one of I am already better because of my resume, then yeah, you may find that a bit difficult to kind of fit in, to kind of acclimate to what's going on, because your mindset, your mindset, can sometimes be a little off-putting to others. Now that I have seen. But again, the church itself did not make that individual or individuals feel unwelcomed. They were still welcome. But in that particular place that they were trying to get in there was some struggle there. But it was not because they weren't capable, it was just their attitude about what it is they could do.
Speaker 1:Yeah yeah, let's get Tammy in here, and then we're going to hear from her a little bit more in a minute. Tammy.
Speaker 5:I agree with my brother here that was speaking about like an opera singer coming into a gospel choir, that just doesn't. You know. You know a jail well. But as a professional singer coming into a new group, me personally I would just like lay back a little bit and just to see you know how they operate and you know, and you know their format and how they sing, you know, just to see, you know how everything is, you know how everything is going, how everything is flowing, just so that it will be easy for me to you know what I mean to, I guess, gel with everyone, right, yeah, I just feel that if you just come, if you're new, coming in, and then right off the back, okay, you just jump right in without you know feeling the flow or seeing the flow of everything, it will make it hard, you know, for you. But just coming in, you're new, coming in, it's good to just lay back a little bit just to see how everything you know is flowing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, you know. That's one of the reasons we would conduct interviews before the auditions so that we can weed out or at least identify the attitudes. And even then, once you passed the audition, I would ask people to sit in for consecutive rehearsals, because then that told me a whole lot about their commitment. If you want to be a part of the choir, then you have to be able to commit to rehearsals. But this was also an opportunity to accomplish a couple of other things. One you get to learn some of the music. Secondly, you get to decide whether or not you really like these people. Our guest contributor tonight Choir Director, Worship Leader, Musician and solo recorded artist. You just heard from her during our CRQ with you. Welcome, Tammy Williams. Welcome.
Speaker 4:Welcome.
Speaker 5:Here. Happy to be here, Thank you.
Speaker 1:We have sang together in church choirs, community choirs worked with school choirs, did some community work, did some recording that we're going to have to talk about and get a little laughter in a little later. Mietta knew that we had a guest tonight but she didn't know who. But we both grew up playing and singing with you and knowing you and your family. Tell our listening audience a little bit about the Tammy we grew up knowing.
Speaker 5:Well, I've been singing since I was five years old. My dad would have my sister and I singing. Saturday was our rehearsal time. He would just have us singing songs over and over. Okay, sing it again. Okay, sing it again. So that's where I got my start. We got older and then my dad formed a family group called the Williams Singers and we used to go around the city singing all over. It was my dad, my mom, my brother, sister, my cousin and my uncle, and so that's where I got my start. Then joined the youth choir at the New shallow missionary church and sang on the youth choir. They ended up becoming the youth director, minister of music, at the age of, I'm going to say, 13, 12 or 13. Okay, so that's where I got my start. Then just singing all through my life. And then I went to Westminster choir college Okay, went there. You know, he sang. And here I am now.
Speaker 5:Still singing, still singing 54 years. Wow, 54. Yeah, I was calculating that the other day and I was like wow.
Speaker 1:So you started teaching choir at the age of 13 at the shallow missionary Baptist church, and that would have been under the late Dr Blakely.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 5:And I remember that clearly because I used to come there quite often.
Speaker 1:Now your dad. I remember pretty well he was quite the guy and quite intimidating he was.
Speaker 1:He meant business. He reminds me of the, of the of the wineings Papa. You know he was just, he just meant business. It was it was God's business and that was it, you know. But you come from a singing family, your sister saying, your brother saying, your mom saying, your dad obviously saying and I think he played a little guitar. So you come from a singing family. But let's shift a little bit and talk a little bit about the church choir experience versus the college choir experience, because there's a difference between the two and we're trying to get our listeners to understand the difference between church choir, college choir, school choir, community choir. Talk to us a little bit about those differences.
Speaker 5:As you saw it, Okay, so choir, choir experience, and growing up, when you would join the church, they were so used to just saying, ok, go ahead and join the choir, so anyone could join the choir and just sing. When I went to Westminster it was more on a professional level. You know they. Of course we have vocal lessons. They taught us you know the proper way to sing. You know they develop. You know our skills in singing, air training. You know sight singing. You know all of that was involved and that was on a different level as opposed to singing on, you know, with a choir church choir.
Speaker 1:Now, did you choose to go to college because you were that enamored with singing and music? Or did somebody in the church or your family tell you hey, if you're going to do this, you got to kick it up a notch. What was your motivation?
Speaker 5:I was, you know that, much in love with, you know, with music, so I wanted to pursue that.
Speaker 1:And how much of that experience were you able to bring back to the church and then apply those applications and theories to your church choir?
Speaker 5:Oh, most of it you know, learning how to you know warm up the vocals you know with the different vocal exercises that you know I was taught you know. So when I went back to the church choir I began to you know, show them how to you know warm up their vocals with the vocal exercises which they really enjoy.
Speaker 1:Great. I imagine the average church choir found that to be pretty new for them and somewhat of a novelty. Did the newness and the novelty ever wear off in that they wanted to just forego the choir warmups and get back to regular choir rehearsals?
Speaker 5:No, no, they really enjoyed it, they really did.
Speaker 1:Good, good. So when you were in Westminster College, was it your intention or your plan, or did you give it any thought? Launch a solo career, pursue that or get into teaching, or goal and strengthen the church choir? What was your thought?
Speaker 5:Well, well, I got called back to shallow because they needed a minister of music. So I went back to shallow. They were having, I guess, struggling, you know, with the choir because the choir had went from. I forgot how many was on the choir, but it went down to like five members and so they really wanted me to, you know, help to grow the choir and what have you. So, you know, I started working with their youth. A matter of fact, what they did was they combined the choirs because of the fact that, you know, everyone was leaving. So, you know, we started off with the five. Okay, work with them. And then it started growing, you know, people started coming back to the choir and so I was the minister of music of their mass choir there and it went from there. We went from five members to 100 members.
Speaker 1:Wow, by the time I left in 1988, 1988, that is exponential growth to go from five to 100.
Speaker 5:Well, we bear at Shiloh.
Speaker 1:It's great growth, especially in a time when we are talking so much about how the pandemic has affected the church choir and it's dwindled. Thus this podcast. You guys have had exponential growth in 88 from five to 100. That's phenomenal. I think that speaks to your leadership as well.
Speaker 5:So you know, we, you know, got the choir to like 100 voices and then I think it was like 1988 is when I left, because that's when I got married in 1989. So I was, you know, off doing ministry, you know, with my husband, and then we started a ministry and then, you know, I was working with the choir there and again started off with a handful of members and you know it, really it grew, it took off, right, you know. So I've been working and I'm still working with choirs. I'm now a seminary Baptist church as their minister of music and that was interesting. They had about four when I started. They have four choirs and each choir they only had a handful of people, like maybe five here, seven here, one who packed 10.
Speaker 1:Those were today's worship teams.
Speaker 5:And then what happened? The pandemic hit, okay, and then that really caused you know well, everything had stopped, okay. So then when we started coming back, we only had like the just a handful, like maybe three to five people show up, so I was doing most of the singing.
Speaker 1:And then we know that you're capable of carrying that.
Speaker 5:So, you know, slowly but surely, you know, people started coming back. So, you know, I was just looking at it all and I just thought to myself well, why don't we, instead of having four different choirs with just a handful of people, why don't we just combine everyone, okay, and make it stronger? So what I did was last year in August, I did a praise and worship workshop for the choir to explain to them, you know, about praise and worship, to explain to them why they sing, to explain to them their role as a choir member, explain to them about ministry. And it was, it was very well, you know, received. So I share with them, I said. And then, at the end of the workshop, I said listen, why don't we do this? Why don't we, instead of having all these four you know four choirs, why don't we just come together and form a unity choir? I said I believe that there's strength in numbers. I've done this before and you will find that it will grow, it will get stronger. You know, I just feel that a strong ministry ministry department, a music ministry department, along with the preach word it will call it, will help this church to grow.
Speaker 5:I told them. I said just give me a month. I said give me a month, let's just try this, okay, and then after the month, then we will revisit this. Okay, and then you can share with me. You know your thoughts and what it is if you want to go back to, you know, having the four choirs or the unity choir. Well, so, after the workshop that Sunday, when we came in, you know when I tell you it was wonderful, it was awesome, it was explosive, the praise and the worship went to another level, okay. So when the following month hit, okay, before I can even say anything, they were telling me we don't want to go back to, you know, having the four. We wanted to stay together. The unity choir. Even the pastor himself was pleased. He said I'm liking this unity choir.
Speaker 5:Okay, they are strong, their voices are stronger. They come in with a praise now, because they understand now about praise and worship, they understand why they praise, they understand being chosen as a vessel of God to minister and song. And so, as I share with them, you know, you know, when I present songs to you, you know, let it minister to you first. You know, look at the lyrics. What is it? What is it saying? What is it ministering to you and then I try to share with them to become the song. I know, in other words, at that moment when we, when we stand before the congregation to to minister the song Okay, you've already, you know, studied the song. Okay, you, you allow the song to minister to you. Now, all you need to do is just open your mouth and sing and let God do the rest. Okay, just show up and let the Holy Spirit take over. You know, at that point, and I tell you, it's been, it's just been amazing, it's been amazing.
Speaker 5:We have a great service on Sunday. Okay, we, there was one Sunday we sing, you know, the song war, okay, the we sang that a couple of Sundays ago and the guy that leads the song, he's been going through different challenges in his life, okay, and he was in rehearsal. He was talking about how the enemy is attacking him and attacking his family and what have you. So I told him, I said channel that in the song, yeah, sing that song, okay. And when I tell you, on that Sunday, when we sang that song, oh, my goodness, okay, a praise just broke out. That was just I tell you. So I, you know, I just love the choir. You know the choir singing is very powerful. It's, it's healing for those who participate in it. You know who sing on choir. It's like you come and you feed off one another, you know yeah.
Speaker 2:Dorian, so you said there were four different choirs and, as we know, I mean, a choir has its own culture. So do you think that the reason that there were these four different choirs before was that people were comfortable in the culture of these four choirs, even though there weren't a lot of people in each of these four choirs? I mean, and so how, how has it been sort of trying to make those four cultures kind of one culture now and possibly a new culture? How how is, how is that? How's that been?
Speaker 5:Well, they had the inspirational choir, which were like the older, the older schools. Okay, they had the male chorus, they had the what they called the tribe of Judah, which were like the younger, the younger people, and they had the youth choir. Okay, those four different choirs, so, um, and the other inspirational choir. They did songs, they did like mostly hymns, because that's all they knew. Okay, I started introducing the songs that we used to sing way back, like the Walter Hawkins songs and, you know, andre Crouch, and, and it was new to them. And I'm saying myself, how is it that you never heard these songs? But they never did? Because they said that I guess the pastor they had at the time, I guess before a pastor, still all he wanted were hymns. So, even as as as a youth, as a young, they sang hymns.
Speaker 1:Hmm, you know that's, that's good. I know Dorian right now is tickled pink With the whole idea of those young people singing.
Speaker 2:We're going to get an argument from.
Speaker 1:Awesome.
Speaker 2:Coleman.
Speaker 3:Yeah. What do you think that the combination of all of these choirs has added to your worship experiences and your and just the culture of your church? That it was lacking before? What do you think that this brought to the table that you felt like may have been missing previously?
Speaker 5:Honestly, I'm going to say, um, I don't know who, who they had as the minister of music before you know, who you know will bring you know the songs to them. Yeah, but I'm gonna say with me I am a positive person, a lot of energy, I'm very expressive. So bringing that along with introducing them to the Holy Spirit that's key.
Speaker 5:Like I said, when I did that workshop and I explained to them about praise and worship and I also explained to them about the Holy Spirit and how it was like far into them, okay, they were like wow, okay, and like really opened them up and so, and doing all of that, okay, and they even said to me wow, now we see why, you know you're on fire all the time, why you're so, you know, energetic. And it was like now we see where it comes from, you know. So now you know introducing them to that and now they have understanding, okay, when they sing songs, even when we sing hymns, okay, it's different. Now it's like you know, a light has come on.
Speaker 3:I would love to hear that talk sometime. I wish you had recorded it because I'd love to hear it.
Speaker 6:I have a question for you, Tim. Yes, listen, I come from a culture of 27 choirs in the church, so I get it 27?.
Speaker 6:Yeah, they just have a lot. Dorian, I tell you this is old, yeah, at least Well, I'm exaggerating 27, but at least seven, yeah, it's a real thing. So I come from a culture of that. But with that, with that, song selection has been troubling in that in some cases not in every case, but in some cases so when you were able to get them all together, bring them all to one place in your song selection, how did you pick songs? Because you had such a wide range? Yes, Singers from, I'll just say, from zero to perhaps maybe 60.
Speaker 1:That's a lot of numbers Kids from one to 92.
Speaker 6:Right, so what was your process in that?
Speaker 5:First of all, prayer. I pray all the time, asking the Lord, asking the Holy Spirit to lead and guide and give me the songs to bring to the choir. And I tell you, it does. It just comes and I just step out there and I introduce the songs to them and because they've never same songs like gospel songs, like this, just singing hence they're just excited, they're like, wow, this is something new. And so, again, I pray, ask the Holy Spirit for guidance. What song should we sing? And then also, too, I always ask the pastor is there something that you would like to hear? He will give me the topic of his sermon. I would choose that way, but they are enjoying this journey. They are enjoying this journey of the gospel songs. I just taught them this old song don't wait till the battle is over. Oh, we are just loving it. So right now, that's how I'm moving, you know, and just allowing the Holy Spirit to lead and guide.
Speaker 1:And I think the name of the choir is apropos. It kind of requires them to live up to the name and encourages them to make that journey pleasant, dorian.
Speaker 2:How about the musicians? How have they fared? I mean, did each choir have its own musicians also, or did the musicians played for all of them?
Speaker 5:No, it's just me. It's me. I have there's a keyboardist and we have a drummer. That's it, the three of us.
Speaker 1:That's pretty standard in those circles, Dorian.
Speaker 2:That makes it easy.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 5:Very easy.
Speaker 2:You're in the choir room.
Speaker 1:You know, there's never a shortage of things to talk about when it comes to church choirs and community choirs. Schools are a little more organized and a little more structured. Tell us about the choir at your school.
Speaker 5:All right. So Dorian tried a Christian school okay, goes from kindergarten all the way to eighth grade, and so I am the music teacher there. When they hired me back in 2017, I started out as the music teacher. Now I'm teaching music and Bible. So I basically just, you know, with the music class, I prepare the students for all the different events that we have coming up, and that this is something new to them as well.
Speaker 5:From what I understand, before I was there the teacher, music teacher that they had just really just did, you know, music theory with them. They really did not sing as much, you know, as they're doing now. So, with that the kids they are very excited with that singing and also teaching them about praise and worship. Okay, and they're excited about that. I tell you, when we have chapel every Wednesday, the kids are on fire, okay, and I'm just loving it. We had a school visit us Eastern Christian. They came to visit us, they came and did a presentation and then they asked us to sing as well and they loved it so much. Now they're asking me to come to Eastern Christian, okay, with a group of kids to sing. By the fact, the ensemble I started an ensemble there where we take. You know a few of the kids that have nice strong voices and we are, you know, starting to sing out. You know, in the community, sing around in the community. That's doing well.
Speaker 1:And how long have you been teaching at the school?
Speaker 5:I've been there now for six years. Great.
Speaker 1:Now, it's a Christian school, but what would you say? Some of the differences are between working with the choir at the school and working with the choir at the church.
Speaker 5:Well, I mean because they come in and you know you're dealing with kids so you have to discipline as well. So you know they come in. I introduced the song. You know that we're singing for the upcoming Chapel Service and you know, with the short amount of time that I have, you know I just introduced them. You know, introduced the song to them by letting them listen to it. You know recording of the song and then you know I just go right in and teaching them. You know the song, the way that the song goes and the meaning behind the song. I also, you know, share with them. You know the energy they need to have with the song. They're very excited.
Speaker 5:The children there, they love to praise and worship the Lord. It's amazing to me because I'm like you know you have to pull. You know teak when it comes to trying to get the adults, you know, to understand about singing and you know energy and enthusiasm. But the young people there, you know, at Dawn Tredder, they love it, they love it. I get great feedback from the parents. They're telling me all the time about their children singing around the house. I have one parent call me up, called me out of class because she was crying because she was just talking about how her son was singing the song, you know, during the night, and then in the morning, told, asked the mom to put the recording on, to put the song on so he can sing it, and then he was just saying you know, mom, you know, I just feel God, I feel I feel the Lord, you know, and it just made her cry because she never heard him speak in that way before, you know. So it's having a great effect, you know, on the young people, you know, parents.
Speaker 3:Great, that sounds incredible. I mean, you are surely doing the Lord's work. One of my questions is since you spend so much time with students, what do you see is the biggest need for students in your context today? Like you know, students struggle with different things they have in different contexts are different. But what do you say like is the is? Is what maybe one of your biggest challenges? Or or, what do students need from mentors and and maybe the church or their teachers? What do they need the most these days?
Speaker 5:Love.
Speaker 3:Hmm.
Speaker 5:I'm finding out the kids that come there, they just love to just hug, hug on me. You know, ms Wim, can I have a hug? Can I have a hug? And there are kids that are going through different challenges at home and when they come there to the school they just wanna hug on you. And I have this one student there. I just found out that he lost his mom last month and so, and I was wondering, you know why he was so sad and you know wouldn't participate, you know. So you know I will pull him aside, you know, and just you know, talk with him and you know, let him know that you know Jesus loved him and that we love him here at the school and anything that he and he really appreciated that. You know, he gave me a big hug and he was like, you know, thank you, ms Williams, for talking with me, spending time with me. So that's what I'm finding out with young people. They want that time, that attention. You know, that love. You know a lot of them are missing that.
Speaker 2:In sort of a classroom setting. How are you finding it to teach the kids to sing with one another and to sing harmonies and all because so much of, say, the music that we hear now is so digitized and compressed and auto-tuned and everything else I mean. So the environment that they come from musically is totally different from what you're likely showing them. How have you been able to sort of overcome some of those challenges, or what's been your method for helping them to learn how to sing harmonies and acquire, without all of the other things that they are used to listening to?
Speaker 5:Well, actually, I only sing harmony with the ensemble, because those are the students that have, you know, the stronger voices and you know more advanced. And so, yeah, the younger ones, the other students, you know, I just let them we sing along, you know, unison. There are those, though, that have great ears, okay, and they can pick out the harmony, you know. And so, yeah, I work with the ensemble, you know more advanced with them and learning the harmony.
Speaker 3:I think it's just so cool how they're getting the classroom experience and then they're getting to turn around and use that experience in the worship setting. It's like you've got the best of both worlds going on here, and then you get to go back and you get to teach them and say this is what we just experienced and this is what we're trying to do, this is the goal of what we're actually did. That's awesome.
Speaker 6:Tammy, what are the ages? I know it's a school right, so what are the ages that you primarily work with or you just run?
Speaker 5:kindergarten, you eight, kindergarten, kindergarten all the way through eight. Yes, okay, so that's what? Five through 12. 12. 13.
Speaker 6:Wow, Five through 12. So the I guess you said the ensemble is where you break out into harmonies. So what are their ages?
Speaker 5:I let's see Fourth grade, fifth grade, sixth grade. So I would say, what is that about? 10 to 12? 10 to 12. This year, cause, I will only take fourth grade through eighth grade, but this year I chose three from the third grade. Because their voices are so strong, okay, and they are very well disciplined, okay, and they do everything that I asked them to do. They're right on it, okay, they learn songs quickly, no problem. So I said, let me just take them, let me just try, try working with them and begin to train them. And they're doing very well, very well.
Speaker 1:You know, and that doesn't surprise me at this age, because the last generation or two has had more access to music than we've ever had. You know, with the technology they walk around with it all the time where we had to go buy the record or the LP or the, you know we had the Walkman so we had to spend some money and then the thing was too bulky to carry around for the most part, although we tried, and we tried to be cool with it, but that doesn't surprise me about this generation and their ability to grab music quickly.
Speaker 1:Tammy, it's been great having you with us in these last few minutes. Tell us about the project and where we can find the title the Lord's Prayer.
Speaker 5:Okay, the Lord's Prayer. Tammy Williams, the Lord's Prayer. It's so funny how all this happened. I started receiving a lot of phone calls to sing at homegoing services, funerals, and the one song everyone would request is the Lord's Prayer. Now there was a time when, like years ago, I would sing the Lord's Prayer at weddings. Okay, I would call to sing that at weddings. So. But I started getting calls to sing the Lord's Prayer, you know, at the homegoing services. And there was one service when I left out.
Speaker 5:Someone said to me have you recorded yet, you know? I said no, I've been thinking about it. And it said well, you know, you're long overdue, you need to. You know, you need to record. I said, okay, you know, you know, I'll think about this. So I ran into James Williams played for me, and he was like when did you go into? You know record, you know? And I said you know what I want to record, you know, I'm just looking for someone to work with. So he said, well, whenever you're ready, just let me know. So when he reached out to me again, I said, okay, yes, I'm ready. And he said, okay, so what is the first song that you want to record? I said you know, I've been getting a lot of requests to sing the Lord's Prayer, so I believe that that's what you know God want me to record first. So that's how it all that came about.
Speaker 1:And there you have it. Friends, you can find Tammy Williams, the Lord's Prayer, anywhere that you get music, and we'll be sure to include it in our show notes. Coleman is going to take us out with the thought of the week.
Speaker 3:Thanks, Greg. So lately at my church we've been going through a Name of God series. Of everything that has been said over the last several weeks, one thing sticks out to me the most. It's that we often call God by names that are associated with His actions. We say Jehovah Jireh, Jehovah Nisi, Jehovah Shama, Jehovah Rafa, those kind of things. Well, here's a little paradigm shift. While we often see God via His actions, they're just pointing to His identity. We don't call God Jehovah Jireh because he can provide. We don't call God Jehovah Rafa because he can heal and so on. We call God these things because it's who he is. It's His very nature. He can't not be a provider, he can't not be the healer, he can't not be victorious, he can't not be with us, he can't not see us. It's in His very nature.
Speaker 3:A lot of times our worship is directed at God for what he's done. But I think about the song by Martha Munizzi and it's been covered many times by others, but the song is titled Because of who you Are. It hits the nail on the head that God is those things. He can't be anything apart from those things, those ways that he reveals Himself. We worship Him because of who he is. So, as you gather with your community of faith, let me encourage you to take some time to worship God for who he is. I'm not saying that it's wrong to thank Him for what he's done. In fact we should. That's a very, very faithful response to God's actions. But maybe you need to hear that God is who God is and God doesn't change. Maybe we need to worship Him for who he is before we even see Him act in the way that we need. So let's take this week, let's take the next little bit of our lives to worship God because of who he is.
Speaker 1:And remember, if ever we put the messenger before the message, we have failed to present an unblemished gospel. I'm Greg Thomas. Join us again right here next week in the Choir Room.
