The Choir Room Podcast
This podcast exists to promote and encourage two long-time traditions in our society that seem to be dwindling…The Choir and Corporate Singing. We hope to revive the excitement and joy experienced with singing in a choir, as well as inform and educate the listener on all things singing, and all things choir related.
A weekly podcast featuring discussion and interviews with choir directors, choir members, and other guests representing church choirs, college and university choirs, community choirs, show and theatre choirs, composer of choir music, and other.
Segments include tips and instruction from skilled and professional disciplines within the choir community covering topics such as choir culture and community, choir directing, vocal training, ear training, sight reading, and more. A monthly virtual live audience episode allows the listener to engage with hosts and guests during instructional and Q&A segments via the live recording, chat, email, on various social media platforms.
A production of Metromusic & Arts, Inc.
- www.metromusic-arts.com
- thechoirroom@metromusic-arts.com
- mail@mmertomusic-arts.cm
The Choir Room Podcast
A Conversation with LaShawn Nieves and The Choir Room Team on The Transformative Power of Singing the Gospel
Join us on a faith-filled journey as we uncover the extraordinary power of singing gospel music, with a special focus on its impact within choirs.
We're thrilled to introduce LaShawn Nieves, our esteemed guest contributor who has dedicated her life to gospel music as a singer, worship leader, and so much more. She's here to unfold her story, from her early involvement with gospel music to eventually becoming a worship leader and coach. She shares tidbits of leading worship, and how her life experiences have shaped her unique coaching style and how she is currently guiding others on their music journey.
As we progress, we delve into the essence of hymns and their profound role in gospel music. We discuss the importance of teaching congregations about the songs they sing, fostering not just an auditory experience but a deeply spiritual one. The episode concludes on a powerful note, discussing the concept of surrender and worship. We encourage listeners to acknowledge God as our Lord and Savior, not just with words, but by surrendering their whole being - mind, spirit, and body. This episode is not just an exploration of gospel music but a celebration of its transformative power.
Perpetuating and Promoting the Christian and Positive Idea Through the Medium of Music and Other Arts.
Season 1, episode 18 of the Choir Room Podcast, A production of Metro Music and Arts, perpetuating and promoting the Christian and positive idea Through the medium of music and other arts. I'm Greg Tomas, your host, and I'm joined tonight by my co-host, dorian Johnson. Good evening, greg. I'm Beato Stansofarar. Good evening, and who we like to call the fourth wheel, coleman Smart. Good to see ya. We'd like to keep you informed with the upcoming services and programs through Metro Music and Arts, and one way to ensure that you are is that you contact us at mail at MetroMusicDashArtscom If you want to be notified about specific programs coming through the Choir Room. Make sure you subscribe to this podcast anywhere you listen to podcasts, or you can simply send the word subscribe in the subject field in an email to the Choir Room at MetroMusicDashArtscom, and make sure that you share with a friend that you're in the Choir Room.
Speaker 2:Welcome to the Choir Room.
Speaker 1:Now, generally we'll have our co-host join us a little later in the podcast, but because tonight we have our special guest and she is with us after being scheduled and then rescheduled because of what life happens, our guest contributor tonight is a singer par excellence and she is a worship leader, a songwriter, recording artist. She's also a workshop instructor and more. She wears a few hats and she's going to be joining us tonight in our CRQ and then sharing with us why you should be singing. So let's get the sound effect ready and let's give a warm Choir Room. Welcome to LaShawne Neves. All right Now. Our CRQ is always a good piece of flint for our conversation each week, and the last week was no different and it took us down a little trail of conversation. Little trail, yes, and it comes at the admonishment of our fourth wheel.
Speaker 3:For those who are wondering who that is, it's me, it's Coleman.
Speaker 1:But we certainly don't want to be guilty of ever sounding like we're always speaking to the ills of choir, or the ills of choir in church or school or college or the community. We're not always speaking to the ills of these groups. So we want to be able to offer solutions and offer suggestions and offer some hope and encourage people. I mean, the whole purpose of the podcast is to encourage people to sing wherever you are, whoever you are. And so today, as Mieta brings us our CRQ, it's a little different from previous CRQs, and so stick around, because I think this CRQ will encourage you and even challenge you. But before Mieta comes, dory, why don't you bring us the hymn of the week? Thanks, Greg.
Speaker 4:This week's hymn of the week is A Mighty Fortress is Our God. Psalm 46, verses 1 through 3, say God is our refuge and strength, a very present help and trouble. Therefore, we will not fear, though the earth gives way, though the mountains, be moved into the heart of the sea, though its mountains roar and foam, though the mountains tremble at its swelling. This hymn was written by Martin Luther in 1529, a man who, 12 years earlier, on October 31st, nailed a document of 95 theses on the door of the castle church in Wittenberg, germany. This 95 theses, he sharply criticized the Roman Catholic Church's uses of indulgences or good works for penance, and his act is widely seen as the beginning of the Protestant Reformation, which set forth the biblical truth that salvation was by grace alone, by faith alone in Christ alone. His stand for truth ultimately led him to be excommunicated from the Roman Catholic Church and then to be a condemned and wanted man.
Speaker 4:And while it isn't certain, it seems that this hymn was written from Luther's experience of running from his enemies. And just as Luther experienced these trials and difficulties, every Christian experiences trials and difficulties. And even more, every day, the Christian fights against three enemies the world, flesh and the devil. All are too great to overcome in their own strength. But in the face of such opposition, this hymn declares God's constant presence as a refuge for his people, declares the great opposition that the Christian faces and declares the confidence that the Christian should have in God. And so, as this hymn is sometimes referred to as the battle hymn of the Reformation, its truths still stand today, because the truths are based in the Word of God. And as we look to Psalm 46, which began proclaiming God's imminent storing times of trouble, may our refrain and our confidence be verse 11 of Psalm 46. The Lord of hosts is with us. The God of Jacob is our fortress.
Speaker 3:You're in the choir room.
Speaker 1:Thanks again, dorian Mia, that has our CRQ.
Speaker 2:Yes, thank you, greg, our CRQ this week. The question is can we speak to some of the positives currently inquired as it relates to gospel music? Some of the positives, I got a couple. I'll share mine and then I'll let the rest of you let it rip. I think now, before you do, that?
Speaker 1:why do you think we have a CRQ that asks us to address the positives? Well, I mean, are we notorious for always speaking to the negatives?
Speaker 5:I'm like this is my first rodeo.
Speaker 2:I'm like okay, what kind of presentation is this? We have kind of tackled, as you said earlier, greg, some of the ills of this thing we call choir and choir music. So tonight we have decided with the request and suggestion, I should say, of what Greg calls a fourth wheel For the Coleman Smart. He's the youngest of us all and we were speaking last week about some of the positives, and so this question, I thought, was a great question to present because, yes, we do. We speak to a lot of the stuff that's going on that is not so pleasing. So tonight we're going to tackle or go into some positives, and there are more positives than we actually talk about.
Speaker 2:There are a lot of positives in this thing we call gospel music as well as choir. So, my couple, I think that one of the one of the positives of this, it's more versatile than it's ever been in terms of the music. Musically, there's so many things that you can do with the music that we were kind of stuck in doing in a time gone by. I know that for a fact because I grew up in a traditional church where it was done a particular way and we didn't really go outside of that box much. But now, as time has gone and music is supposed to evolve. It's supposed to evolve Anything that my former pastor says. Anything that stays in one place too long, it's called well. He used the word retardation. I don't think we should use that word, but that's what he used.
Speaker 1:He certainly wasn't concerned with being politically incorrect.
Speaker 2:Right, he did not mind, he didn't care about that. We had no worries, he didn't care, we liked it. But he would say that. And then there was some truth to that, because we were kind of stuck in one place. So, musically, I believe it's been more versatile than ever, and also you're able to express a little differently than we once did. In terms of choirs, there was a certain. When I say express, I mean in every area, in terms of your dress, in terms of the music you presented, in terms of even lyrics. Lyrics had to be this and this only. You could not really venture out into too much anything different. In terms of your dress, we were in black and white most of the time, white louses.
Speaker 1:Wait, you guys didn't get a new robe every year.
Speaker 2:What's up with that? I was broke for the adult why they got the role, but you only got the role when it was time for anniversary.
Speaker 3:Like that was the anniversary time, right you?
Speaker 2:get your special for that time. But now you're able to express by just wearing what you want to wear. Now some wearing what you want to wear is a little sketchy, but we're keeping it positive tonight, me and Okay, you're right.
Speaker 2:Coleman, you can do a whole lot more than we could. We just couldn't. And I enjoy it. Tell you the truth, I actually enjoy it. I like being able to put on my sneakers and come to church and worship God, and I found that to be interesting. I remember wearing a pair of pants one time for the first time ever in ministry, singing. I felt weird, but I was so comfortable. I had never been more comfortable in my life, and this is great. Times have changed and I and that you could not. You could not do that everywhere, but we're now at the time where you can. You can do that. So those are some of the positives that I have there more, but I'll let you guys jump in.
Speaker 1:You know we've known each other a long time and, outside of a rehearsal, I don't think I have ever seen you come to church in a pair of pants and sneakers.
Speaker 2:Well, I had to.
Speaker 1:Well, I you know, and I know why I mean we grew up in a, in a, in an environment where we could not wear them. We could not.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So Do you want to say you?
Speaker 4:I'm going to stay positive by order of our, of our benevolent dictator Coleman, I'll take it but, but I say no.
Speaker 4:But, as I thought about this, one of the things that is a positive is that we are in an age where technology, and I guess just media in general, allows artists to distribute their music outside of just the, the, the industry. People have YouTube pages they go through. I mean, there are all sorts of avenues for those who are wanting to write original music, wanting to write music that may not be accepted by the traditional avenues that existed before and were the only ways of distributing music, and now we have that opportunity through so many different means. And so I think that I think that the reason we know a lot of artists that we do today is because of that. Yes, the industry does still have some influence, but I would say that influence is waning because people can distribute their music in in many different ways and in many different avenues that didn't exist many years ago. So that's, that's the positive that I thought of in terms of where we are today.
Speaker 3:I think one of my positives really connects with what Dorian just said and it's that music is more accessible now than it has ever been before. If you, if you hear a song, chances are you can find it and sheet music or tracks or something online more now than you ever could have, you know, before. And also another one of my positives is when you look at Christian gospel music now you're seeing another trend toward an increase of participation. I'm seeing more now than ever, you know, in the last at least 1015 years, choir and groups and you know larger groups are coming back in music videos and live recordings and stuff like that. So a lot of the worship, ccm and gospel albums that are coming out now have a worship choir with them again and if you're seeing music videos of even studio recordings, have little choirs with them and that kind of thing. So I just think it's really cool how there's an increase in participation again.
Speaker 3:Rewind 1015 years pretty much every every music video or recording that you saw or heard it was just a solo artist or a trio or something like that, because that was during a time where I think that kind of participation was waning. But now I see that increasing again and that's really, really encouraging to me, because not only encouraging to me as a choir person, but encouraging to me as someone who advocates for congregational singing. It encourages people to be more involved than they have been in the past and that their voice matters in the grand scheme of things. So those are two of my biggest positives right now.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I agree. I love the statement every voice matters, especially for those who don't feel like they have a voice or that they meet the standard of great singer or phenomenal singer and because of that, they feel that they don't have permission or the right to make a joyful noise. One of the primary purposes of this podcast is to get people to become aware of the fact that they have a voice that they should be using and that they're free to use, and so every voice does, in fact, matter. I think when people realize that God has placed in them an innate desire to want to sing, whether you're a singer or not, there's something in you that wants to belt and sing, especially when you're happy and you're feeling good. We should be singing.
Speaker 3:The Getty's wrote a book that is based off of that premise that we were created to sing. It's actually entitled sing. That's the name of the book.
Speaker 1:It's the premise of the sing conference as well. Conference, yeah, and so I believe we should be singing because, not because we reached out to touch him, but because he took the initiative to reach down and touch us. I want to get Lashawn's input on this, and in the words of me, what say you, lashawn?
Speaker 5:Well, me say is that? No, I have kind of two thoughts, and one is where choirs are concerned. For years we've moved more towards. I grew up a choir girl, then a choir girl, my whole life sang choirs. And then we move.
Speaker 5:We have the sharp shift towards kind of the worship team, which was the smaller group of stronger singers, kind of thing, and I think the choir music and gospel music and all that together and utilizing the choir allows for people who may not have very strong gifts to have a place where they can express their gifts or, however minimal that may be, that they can be a part of something bigger than themselves.
Speaker 5:It creates community, it creates opportunities for for teaching and training and just for them to have a place where they can just pour out their gift, whatever that gift is, to the Lord. So I really think we lost something when we moved away so far away from that the whole choir thing and and making it more of a spectator thing of watching the people on the platform as opposed to participating, and the other thing I think that's that's really encouraging today is that and Times Square Church and Brooklyn tab and those places were guilty, and I use that word not in a negative sense, but were were refreshing to me, and that there is a more of a than there has been, I believe, a combination or a or a blending of sounds between gospel music, ccm, like with your Maverick cities, that there's more of a previously gospel sounded like this.
Speaker 5:You knew what was and this was it and this is how you sounded. And CCM sounded like this, and never the two men anywhere on the planet. But now I feel like the music that we're singing as part of our congregations now is much more accompanying of a broader sound that reaches more people, that is able to connect and has pieces of like. You know we can gospel five things. You know we can take that CCM and put the chords in there and blackify it and whatever you call it.
Speaker 5:And we do that for one of the things that Times Square and Brooklyn tab they should. They should take songs and sing them that some of their congregants would have never heard, would have never listened to a john P key or has a kind of Walker, and they would do their version of it in a way that would do it, but it would open that congregate up to a broader spectrum of people that they would have probably never listened to on their own. And so I think it's really beautiful where we're going right now with with more of a blending of styles and sounds, not losing ourselves but bringing that together and creating something where everybody feels connected to. So that's, that's what I say that
Speaker 3:is what me Great Perfect.
Speaker 1:Well said, and I think that is the perfect segue into our discussion with our guest contributor LaShon the evas.
Speaker 2:Welcome to the.
Speaker 1:Welcome.
Speaker 5:Thank you, so glad we can find it.
Speaker 1:It was. It was gonna happen one way or the other, and so we have a worship leader, songwriter, recording artist, wife, mother, consultant, coach, what else?
Speaker 5:What else am I not doing is more the question I'm not doing. But yeah, that covers about who I am right now.
Speaker 1:That's good. Now, we, we haven't. We haven't had the privilege of actually working together, right? But ironically, all of you know, throughout all the years I've seen you, you've seen me, I've worked with your husband, I bought him in a few times, and so it was almost as if we were actually working together but not working together.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I mean, we're seeing some of the same songs, we're leading some of the same types of congregations, if you will, working with some of the same groups. You've sang with other groups and I've crossed those same paths and so we've had the opportunity to be in the same circle and same vicinity. But this is the first time, and even now we're not physically together. We are miles apart, but yet we are together through this technology. So so you've been. You are a worship leader, you've been a worship. Tell us where it all started, for.
Speaker 5:I've been technically well, thank you. First of all, thank you for having me such I love stuff like this is so great, I don't talk about anything music and worship. So right, it's like my heartstrings are being pulled right now. But anyway, I've been. My mother tells me I've been singing since I was four. I don't know how much I believe that, but she says but I've been singing is some capacity, doing something ministry wise for over almost 30 years now. I just had a birthday recently, working with choirs and and leading worship and you know, doing solo stuff, independent things, and working with my husband, but something music related since childhood, and it's just who it is that I am.
Speaker 5:When I went away to college back with dinosaurs wrong there I, that was when praise and worship was just starting to. You know Ramo was doing it and and you know computers and and those guys were introducing this kind of thing about praise and worship, and so the college that I was at had just started to kind of implement that and put that into play and so I got really interested in it and it just came very naturally to me. It was very, very strange and became. It just came very naturally to me and after college I got married and moved to Rhode Island and one Sunday I used to get so frustrated and my pastor now would say if there's an area of your life that frustrates you, that means that that's a part of your purpose and something you're supposed to do something in.
Speaker 5:I would get so frustrated because the worship team at the church that I was a part of they never rehearsed. I think they made up the songs on that Sunday morning. I don't know what was happening, but it was great, great. I was going crazy. I was like I want to rehearse. So what I said look, can we do a rehearsal?
Speaker 5:I want to create a song list so I created a song list and gave it to him, and we did it so the faster.
Speaker 3:After the service said we did that song list and everybody pointed at the song and said, okay, you're officially over the worst.
Speaker 5:I'm like, see, wait, all right, that's what happens when you do something. So from that moment it just became a part of who I was and a lot of what I learned, a lot of what I knew. I did not study, I didn't read books. At that particular point in my life, it was Holy Spirit taught, like, how to put this together, a song list. What do you want to say? What are you trying to commit? What is that? Holy Spirit revealed to me and said this is how it's supposed to go. And then I moved back to Jersey and became a part of Christ Church and when I became a part of Christ Church they were having five services, so they had like 97 in worship leaders, yes, yes, sunday morning. The first service was at 7 May. So y'all, that's the devil.
Speaker 5:Jesus is not getting any advanced soundcheck. At 6 am Jesus is asleep, he's. You know I'm like what is wrong with y'all. So I became a part of the worship ministry there under the tutelage of Angel Carlos, my spiritual mom, who actually today is the anniversary of her passing, yeah, yeah, but I just love her so much but became, got under her wing and was mentored by her and the gift was developed in me.
Speaker 5:And then, about I'd say about five or six years ago, I got a prophetic word and in the word I had not really shared it with anybody what was in my heart to do? I got a prophetic word that says you'll be known as the worship doctor, but she'll go into places and you will help them diagnose what their issues are in worship and and and choir and their music ministry and you will help them to figure it out and train and things like that. So I launched a worship or a worship or consulting, and so that's what I've been doing in addition to my full-time job because worship or the worship, or it's not paying the bills right now, that's the word, but I'm believing it will.
Speaker 5:I'm believing. So, in addition to my nine to five, I do worship, or worship or consulting, which I go into, I do workshop seminars on, I do one-on-one coaching with worship leaders, worship teams, help music ministries and whatever capacity I do teaching with congregations, that kind of thing. So it's really my passion. I love it, love it, love it. Love it so I think that's me.
Speaker 5:And in the middle of all that I got married again to John Nieves and I have three children and they never leave. They always come back. I'm still trying to get with them. Can I send them to go on? Yeah, they want, they want no.
Speaker 3:My son's getting married in October so that's.
Speaker 5:I have hope that he won't come back. My oldest is making me a grandma for the first time, and my 17-year-old? She ain't gonna ever leave. I'm sorry, she just left John's baby, so she ain't ever going on. So my mom and a wife, and that's you know me and a nutshell.
Speaker 1:Your mom says that you were singing as early as four. What's your earliest recollection?
Speaker 5:I was 10 and I was at a Baptist church and I did my first that. I remember my first solo at a Baptist church. I grew up Baptist, so I know a lot of hymns and I know the first, second and fourth verse. Why they never did the third verse?
Speaker 5:I don't know, but they were prejudice against the third verse. I'm a starter petition for the third verse. It was always the first, the second and the fourth. We never did so I know, like so many hymns and those are the verses that I knew that was. The first remembrance of singing was at the Baptist church in my mom's hometown when I was about 10 years old. And where was hometown? Oh, in a little town in North Carolina. That's why I asked you call me what part of North Carolina you were in. It's called Seaboard, no stoplight. Yes, so y'all thank.
Speaker 5:God.
Speaker 3:I delivered.
Speaker 5:It's about an hour and a half from Raleigh, so gotcha, gotcha.
Speaker 1:So the first, second and fourth verse, which is, I think we've all grown up to that. You know, in fact, dorian has been making sure that we get all the verses.
Speaker 4:So we do all the verses.
Speaker 1:We get all the verses in because and I think one of the reasons a lot of churches didn't do all the verses is because you know, culturally, musically, when we've done the same thing once or twice or three times, unless it's saying something and moving us somewhere, theologically it gets old pretty fast, and you know. So. I think that's and that's just my opinion, I think that's one reason, one reason some of these verses have been skipped over. Obviously, the other reason is that I think a lot of the musicians couldn't play the hymns to begin with, so soon we get out of there the better. So now they're having to learn them, you know, and having to learn them by the book, Hello.
Speaker 1:And then I think over the years our generation has begun to develop a better appreciation for the content and hymns in the verses that you don't sing because it is progressive, it is. It does move you from point A to point B. If you follow the progression of these hymns and these verses, they are all moving you to that fourth verse. And if you're thinking about it, to skip the third verse is like to skip a generation of experience to get to that fourth verse. All of a sudden, now you're in heaven, but you don't talk about anything happening here on the earth. You know what I mean, so. So I think there's something to that. Now let's segue and talk about the workshops that you do. Yes, Did your college years in North Carolina prepare you for that?
Speaker 5:Oh no, I got a degree in psychology. Okay, Nothing to do with music.
Speaker 1:And so you kind of ended up in music, probably of the way I did by default.
Speaker 3:You just kind of grew up in the church.
Speaker 1:You tried to get away from it. You couldn't. You wanted to be a psychologist. Are you a psychologist now?
Speaker 5:I am not, but I work in that field.
Speaker 1:I still work in that field. So you wanted to do this other thing, but God just kept saying okay, I'm going to let you do a little bit of that, but you must do this.
Speaker 5:Right so you are in the must do. How would you hear him? How you know what he said to me?
Speaker 1:Well, there's some things in our lives that we must do, and obviously those are the things that God has ordained for us to do, and he certainly equips us to do the must do's. And the truth is, if we don't do the things that we must do, especially the things God has called us to, that he's equipped us to do, we don't reap the benefits of the get to do's or the benefits of the obedience. And so, like me, you found yourself leading worship even when that wasn't a part of your plan, and that's tough for you.
Speaker 5:In college. My first experience with that was in college, my exposure to that and then having an opportunity to kind of watch it in action, and then that was my first experience of actually leaving worship was in college.
Speaker 1:Now, did you sing in choir in college?
Speaker 5:I did. I sang in the East Carolina University gospel choir. I sure did.
Speaker 1:I think every college had a gospel choir.
Speaker 5:And especially if the college was predominantly white. That's where all the black people went to see each other and they're so hot. Yes, that's what we went to meet up with. The job was sort of down the choir rehearsal.
Speaker 1:And so what are some of your biggest takeaways from being involved in choir?
Speaker 5:It was life changing for me at that point. I mean, I had sung in the Baptist choir and but that was, you know, everybody's singing the same note. There wasn't really harmony or things of that nature. When I went to the gospel choir I learned one. I learned that I had significant pitch issues. I really didn't understand what that meant but I worked hard and my the guy who was running the choir was very good at training us and teaching us and it's just, it's actually miraculous that I teach parts. Now I can hear harmonies and teach parts and things when I really could barely stay on the note myself when I was college.
Speaker 5:But I learned community, we did tours. It was just. I grew spiritually during that time because I got saved when I was in college and my life to the Lord and so being a part of the choir helped to cultivate that. It gave me an automatic family being, you know, away at college and young and all the things that you could get into. But that place gave me an opportunity to be in a safe place and to learn music that I had never been exposed to prior to that and it was just an incredible. I was in the choir for all four years that I was at school and it was an incredible experience.
Speaker 1:Now you're also coaching. How did you develop that skill to coach other people in leading, worship and song? Is that something that was developed under Sister Angel?
Speaker 5:It was kind of by default, honestly under her sitting, she would teach me and train me and and show me things in service that, like she would pull me to the side and say OK, what's going on here? What do you see? What is the worship leader doing? What is God saying in this moment, just causing me to think differently and to approach it differently.
Speaker 5:And what I found happening was because there was a strong anointing on my life and because when someone does something and this I'm not, greg knows me, there's not a braggadocious bone in my body, I'm just not like that but when you're good at something, you make it seem easy to other people. When you're walking in the area you're called to, it can appear to other people that it doesn't require a lot of work, and so people would come up to me worship leaders in training would just be naturally drawn to me to ask me questions. And it just came naturally. And what I was sharing, as I said, was really what I was gleaning from Angel, what I was studying, what the Holy Spirit was revealing to me, what God was talking to me about, about worship, and so that part just started to become natural.
Speaker 5:People just naturally asking me for counsel, for advice, for information about how to navigate certain environments, and because I had also had a. Really one of the things that I've really been blessed with is I have a lot of exposure to a variety of background church wise, I've been an AME, I've been Baptist, I've been Church of God and Christ, I've been non denominational Pentecostal, you name it and I've had some life in those ministries. And being able to be able to bring all that into making me who it is that I am allows me to be. To coin Pastor Davis term the coin for reaching. It helps me to go beyond the barriers or boundaries that people would automatically think that I might have, and so that coaching was just kind of a natural evolution of a process People just coming to me for advice and then me wanting to help me, having this frustration of when I see things because I would walk into churches and there's a meme on Facebook somewhere right now that says I've been delivered, but my face has it.
Speaker 4:I would go to services and I would like oh Jesus, help me. I'd be trying to like oh, father, lord, help me.
Speaker 5:and I would be able to see almost immediately if they did this, this, and that they could fix some of these things. And this would, and that would just be my natural, and somehow I would get connected and, like you know, can I come and talk and, you know, do a seminar and some point, I mean a lot of it. I don't. I mean, I have the structure that I have, but I'm not making bank on doing this, because my heart is really just. I just want to help people be able to connect with God.
Speaker 1:Sure, have you ever felt guilty about what you just described? Because I've got money no, not the money, that's a whole other discussion but walking into services, because I've gone into services sometimes and I've had to turn off the technical Greg, I have to turn off the musician, I have to turn off the worship leader, and I just have to go and say, no, you're going to sit down and receive. Don't critique, don't worry about the sound is bad, don't worry about the fact that the keyboard player is missing great opportunities or is playing too much, or the drummer. Is you ever feel, because I have actually walked out of services or walked into services and had such a conviction come over me because I was sitting there judging yes, what was?
Speaker 1:happening so much that I could not enter in the presence of God.
Speaker 5:Yes, yeah, yeah, absolutely felt guilty. I've absolutely done it. I judged, I have just been like Lord. I don't know what I'm gonna do today because this is not happening. Help me, lord, thank you, and. But but really God had to, you know, humble me. You know. Some say try to shut that side of yourself off and enter into worship. There was this little lady that this church, that I was in church of God in Christ for years when I lived in Rhode Island, and she was the only white lady at our church and she would go with us to all the churches, all the blackest Pentecostal churches you could find she would go, and everywhere she went she worshiped every, it didn't matter, she worshiped and the Holy Spirit brought back to my mind and said you
Speaker 5:remember Gail, I said, yeah, she was not. It didn't matter what environment she was in, because her focus was on God. Her, her attention was on him. It didn't matter what style of music they were playing, none of that mattered, because she was focusing on worshiping me. And so that's what I have to do A lot of times. When I go into places where things might not be, the best is to focus my attention and to see what they're, you know, to connect with God, because some of these places that it don't sound like great the presence of.
Speaker 5:God is up in there.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, that's fantastic Jesus.
Speaker 5:They need down the street. Well and when you think about it.
Speaker 1:We didn't actually grow up with the best sound either. You know, I mean today, compared to the technology that we have and the level of equipment that we have in church, I mean if you listen to some of the stuff, we grew up thinking that we were on top of the world. I mean it was God awful. The sound systems and a lot of our churches and don't even get me talking about the pianos, because it was no budget to even get the thing tuned. They were always out of tune.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I grew up in churches that were not always, you know, the most musically excellent or the most well learned you know music degree kind of people in the world. But they taught me what it meant to encounter God in music and I think that is what we have to be careful to protect when we go for the excellence and I am a big excellence guy, I went to school for it and everything but I know the difference between the Lord's presence being there and not.
Speaker 3:And so that's what's so valuable. Despite the, despite the fact that it might not have been the most excellent, they taught me what it was like to experience God. And so that's what we have to bring along with us as we. I'm sure you guys had the same experience growing up as I did, but that's what really taught me and has shaped me into the kind of worship pastor and worship leader that I am today. I don't know if you guys had that same experience, but that was my oh yeah. Oh yeah.
Speaker 1:In fact, some of my greatest experiences and lessons learned, though I talk about the out of tune piano back in the day. It taught me how to truly appreciate a tuned piano when I got around one, and that experience helped to tune my ear to the other things that I was hearing around me. Right now, you take all of those elements and you take the fact that you are genuinely desiring to touch God's heart. I'm glad when I look back that not everything was perfect back then, because today we never truly appreciate the technology and the access that we have. No, I think there's great value in choir and worship teams and full bands and etc. And the fact that we have access to all of this today, probably more than we've ever had. Corporate singing is important, and when you don't have the worship team, inquire how different is it for you to lead in congregational circles?
Speaker 5:Well, my posture, honestly, is not any different if I have a choir with me or worship team with me. My goal is to have the congregation sing and that has to be a very deliberate thing that you do. That means that I'm focusing on the keys of the songs that I'm singing. That means I'm focusing on songs that I don't ever do. A new song, my first song, is never a new song because you got people coming out of the parking lot and just yelling at the kids and arguing and taking kids to church and they mad and they try to be saved but they just struggling and so you want that first interaction be an opportunity for them to just take a deep breath and connect and engage. And so making sure you're singing things that are in the right key, that are familiar, that you're able, the congregation, you give them something to connect to. That means that I sing stuff that demographic that takes into account the demographics of the congregation that I'm in. If there's older saints, I'm going to definitely try to throw in a hymn or things of that nature or older choruses, because they people will relate to it and connect to it and you want them to sing. If I'm the only one thing I'm working too hard, I'm just it's just too much work and it's beautiful.
Speaker 5:Sometimes I'll stop the music to let the congregation hear themselves sing, because the musicians can be really loud and gorgeous and excellent and beautiful. But it is something I tell you. There is something about hearing the voices of the congregation with just no music in the room, worshiping God and singing together. There is nothing like that that I've ever experienced. It's just powerful and you get to hear yourself and you hear yourself singing to the Lord or singing over yourself, whatever he, whatever the song, is singing in that moment and declaring and making sure that you're picking stuff that is easy for folks to grab a hold to, that's theologically sound and that the choruses are easily grabbed because they'll remember the chorus of your song and go home singing it more than they'll remember the six points of the message that the pastor preached. And so it's important that we are singing stuff that the congregation can grab and can go home. I've got people walk up to me after service.
Speaker 5:Who sings that song that you did the second one, and then they'll go home and they'll find it and they'll sing it all week long. That is so important. If the congregation isn't singing, then I have not done my job. I haven't done my job so that doesn't matter to me if the worship team is behind me or there's a huge choir from all along by myself. It's important to me that whoever's in the congregation is singing, and if that means that I don't get to do my new fancy Tasha Cobb song today, then I don't get to do it, because what's?
Speaker 5:most important is that the congregation is able to connect.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah, yeah, I was. I was gonna say I mean one thing that you said that if the congregation isn't singing, then we haven't done our job. And I would say that it goes even beyond that if the congregation isn't singing, they're not doing their job, they're not getting, they're not getting into the word of God and coming to service ready to sing. Because, as we learn what God has done to for us through the gospel, our, our right response is gratitude. It's Thanksgiving, it's singing to the Lord, and I think sometimes what can happen is that they can become, as you said, intimidated by the songs that we're singing.
Speaker 4:And so there, I would say there, we have a whole slew of hymns in our hymn book that we use at our church that we just won't sing because they're just not good for congregational singing, the melodies too complicated. I mean just people will just get intimidated. And so I think that, as someone who is choosing the music, who is leading the music, that we have to remember we don't ever want the folks to feel intimidated by the music that we're singing. They should. It should be accessible, it should be easy and it should be something that they can grab ahold to. First, the truth of it the truth that's found in in in the songs and the hymns that we're singing, but then the tune of it as well, Because it it's not going to stick if it's, like you said, some great song that we like and can jam to everything else and nobody else can can really access it because they just can't grab ahold of it.
Speaker 1:Hey, let's, let's park there for a second. And I want to go back to the thought, dorian, that the congregation is not doing their part if they're not singing. Sean said that she's not doing her part of the congregation and singing and you just had it. Let's take it a bit further. The congregation not doing their part, at what point LaShawn, dorian, me and any of you can jump in on this At what point do we get the opportunity, then, to teach the congregation about the songs that they're singing?
Speaker 1:Because a lot of times they're learning them from us and I think the assumption is that they're going home and reading those lyrics, or they're studying those lyrics or some of that's coming back to them in their, their personal, devotional time. At what point is it our responsibility, outside of regular services, to to instruct the congregation on the singing? Because when you look at scripture, it happened all the time. There was instruction on the singing before they sang, especially in the Old Testament, new Testament church. You don't hear a whole lot about it, but certainly in the Old Testament there was instruction on the song before they sang the song. At what point do we get to do that?
Speaker 4:Yeah, I mean the way our worship service is structured. We don't have sort of one hymn after another and, lashawn, we, the church that I go to, we don't have a choir, we we just sing hymns and and they're through the service. So each hymn that we sing, I introduce usually with something from the word of God, so that we go into that hymn knowing what this hymn is either saying about God, saying what we should be doing in light of what God has done for us, and so that's where some of the teaching is. Years ago and we may go back to this at some point we actually did have hymnsings where we could just go and sing through a bunch of hymns that that sort of centered on certain certain topics or certain themes or certain attributes of God. So I think that's where some of the teaching can can occur as well. And then, obviously, the preaching of the word of God, that that is that's key, that is that is key.
Speaker 2:You just hit something, dorian, about the Hemsing. I did a few about a couple of years ago, I believe it was before COVID. Yeah, we did something like that. I'm a lover of Hems in particular. I really, really do. I love Hems but I do know that my generation, they like them but they're not as invested in them as we probably should be. I love Generation X I think me and Greg are in the same generation, I believe, I think and many of us are not as invested. So I am a big lover and I did a HEM clinic actually, and you talked about how are we able to teach them, and we were able to do that in that HEM clinic.
Speaker 2:Our services are not set up where we are able to do a lot of the teaching on it and opening up scripture regarding it. As it relates to scripture, we're not because our services don't really give us that kind of room, but in that Hemsing if I think, if we were able to do that every couple of months, we would get a better understanding, a better understanding of the content in those Hems. We don't. You know, you've pushed me, dorian, you're pushing.
Speaker 4:I ain't do nothing, I'm just.
Speaker 5:You just need to yield, just yield, go on.
Speaker 1:Don't fight the feeling right.
Speaker 2:Now I gotta go back.
Speaker 1:Well, I think one of the things Get into that.
Speaker 2:I think it's needed.
Speaker 1:No, I love the idea of the HEMFAS. I mean, I've been a part of those as well and I've also been a part of some of the SYNC conferences with Keith and Kristen Getty over the years. But it's funny, you said that our services don't lend themselves To that, but we make time and services for a lot of other things.
Speaker 3:I think, if we cut out some announcements.
Speaker 1:We could probably teach on a HEM or two, but I'm not going negative, coleman, I'm just saying Just making a suggestion.
Speaker 3:Just making a suggestion, thank you, no, just kidding.
Speaker 5:I think for me as a worship leader I take opportunities to, when I do exhortations, like if I'm introducing a new song or something like that, or share a testimony that kind of highlights what the song means, I tell any worship leaders that I'm training, that you are teaching that way, you're teaching through song, that way. You got to make sure that your songs are billowly correct, that they're in scripture. If you can't find it in scripture some way you don't need to sing it. That this is about people are going home learning attributes of God and so using those moments one or two moments in between your songs to help the congregation connect, to understand a song on a deeper level.
Speaker 5:And I also know that if a congregation isn't necessarily worshiping, that it's a good idea for the pastor to teach on worship, to teach on congregational, to teach on it, because it means that they are not connecting. They don't. There needs to be a refreshing revival, if you will, on that, and so I think it can come from the pulpit on a Sunday morning, from the pastor as opposed to from the worship leader or the choir singer. I think on special occasions you can plan workshops and things of that nature. I get brought in to do workshops with the congregation, not just the worship ministry, because oftentimes they really just need to learn and understand, and so you have to take advantage of whatever moments you're given honestly and then create the moments, create some spaces where you can actually do teaching on songs to give people understanding of what they're singing.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and in your mention of creating that moment, one thing that we used to do we don't do it that often anymore but one thing that we would do is just have the accompanist play the whole verse of the hymn. And I would encourage the people, because we use hymnals, read the first verse, Just read it as the accompanist is playing, so that you're singing with understanding. And if you already know the first verse of that hymn, read the second verse of it. If you know the first two, read a verse so that we are singing with understanding, because that's the other thing that we're called to do Sing with understanding. We're not just called to sing with understanding, and that's why it's so important that our hymns and our songs be theologically sound.
Speaker 1:Yeah, every song being laced in line with the gospel of truth, especially the third verse. We're really here to help. We're here to help.
Speaker 2:I thought, john, you hurt, you helped me. I thought we were the only ones who eliminated the third verse. We're not alone in this.
Speaker 1:You know, most churches used to have a midweek service. Many churches would call it a Bible study or prayer meeting Midweek. I think those services could also be an opportunity to do some teaching on the hymns or the songs that are being sung during the services on Sundays.
Speaker 2:We used to have that Tuesday was our night. Tuesday night it was amazing because we did two things at once. We did rehearsal with choir rehearsal and our prayer and Bible study all in one night. Oh wow, it's tricky. It was tricky because we got in trouble a lot because people would come to the rehearsal with knees out before prayer starts it was a setup.
Speaker 2:It was a setup and I think the pastor set it up that way purposefully. He did it that way so that because our hour, we had to go to prayer and go to Bible study in order to sing. That was the way we were brought up so spiritual requirements. Oh man, was it a requirement? And you mess around and miss it if you want to, but you will not be marching in on Sunday morning. That's the way of life.
Speaker 5:The thing that I've done is, on rehearsal night, like she was saying, we didn't necessarily have it incorporated, but any choirs or worship ministries that I oversaw, devotionals and prayer were mandatory. I even had somebody tell me I can't join the choir. I said why? Because I didn't come here to pray. Oh, oh yeah, I came to sing. I said OK, well, god bless you. See you on Sunday morning.
Speaker 5:God bless you, but it is a mandatory part of a rehearsal. Any rehearsal that I run is there's a mandatory part of it of devotions and prayer and sometimes not even get into rehearsal because God he wants to do and we want to yield to that and whatever he wants to do. So those opportunities as well, especially because even your people you think the people in the ministry know and understand, but they don't know and understand almost as much as the people in the congregation and so the more you teach them and train them, the more that they can train others in conversation and those kinds of things is trickle effect.
Speaker 1:And I think we have an obligation as worship leaders, choir directors, to make sure that the songs that they sing, they are able to sing with understanding, so that when they do sing them, those songs come from a deeper well, a deeper place and the hearer is able to discern that. Yeah, Coleman.
Speaker 3:No, I agree with you. In our rehearsals and in my rehearsals, I want people to leave feeling like they are ready to pour out on Sunday. I preach to them all the time that rehearsal isn't just about getting all the right notes, but it's about getting full, you know, filling your cup so that it can overflow on Sunday, preparing our hearts spiritually. So, yes, I just echo everything that y'all said so important.
Speaker 1:Good stuff, coleman LaShawn. In closing, speak to the listener who is singing in the kitchen, singing in the shower, singing in their head on the bus. We always try to encourage those people to sing out loud somewhere. Join a choir, join a group. Speak to that person who feels like they don't have a joyful voice to make a joyful noise.
Speaker 5:I mentioned this briefly earlier that when I went to college I realized that I had significant pitch issues, that unless there was a soprano staying next to me, I could not stay on my soprano note. And I worked and I worked and I prayed and the Lord helped me. This is no joke and I can now hear parts and things of that nature. So I want to say to someone who looks at me and says, oh, she's got such a strong gift. I didn't start there and wherever I started, god loved it. He loved whatever it was that I had to offer, as long as my heart was pure for him.
Speaker 5:So I encourage you keep singing, singing the kitchen, singing the bathroom, singing the grocery store. But join other believers because there's nothing, there's just nothing about corporate, nothing like, should I say, corporate worship, corporate coming together, building that community. Don't be afraid to do it. Jump in there both feet and allow yourself to grow, give yourself. If you want to grow in that area, please feel like you've got a little bit, but you want to grow. It's the perfect place to do it. Don't hide your gift, because every person.
Speaker 5:I tell people all the time just because the person holding the mic, maybe out front, every person in that choir is ministering to someone in that congregation. You're giving someone else permission to express themselves, so don't hold it back. Don't hold your gift back. Share it with the world and give other people permission to do their thing as well.
Speaker 1:Amen, LaShon, thanks for joining us. Thanks for your yes. We look forward to having you back with us again soon. You can find LaShon at LaShonTheEvescom and on Instagram LaShonTheEvesSings. Coleman's gonna take us to the thought of the week.
Speaker 3:Thanks so much, greg. You know, over the last few weeks we've been talking about the action of raising or lifting one's hands as a sign of worship. As an act of worship, we've talked about some scriptural precedents for it, we've talked about some theological concepts that go with it, and so now I wanna share with you two practical aspects of lifting our hands as an act of worship. The lifting of hands for one is an act of worship that's symbolic of vulnerability. Have you ever paid attention to how body language tells a story? Or have you ever noticed how, when you feel like you're in danger or you're nervous, you're feeling challenged, you're angry or you're uncomfortable, you tend to draw your arms in, maybe you even cross them. But have you ever noticed that, on the other hand, you become more expansive in your body language when you feel safe and free? I could go into the science of all this, but I know that we've all done it and we've all seen it for ourselves. We've experienced this.
Speaker 3:Therefore, lifting one's hands to God can be like saying I'm holding nothing back. All I am is yours, to search and to sanctify. Everything I am I give to you. I'm withholding nothing Not. I'm not afraid, I'll give you one more. Similarly, this action can be inspired by the concept of surrender. Without being cliche, you can go anywhere, and if you raise both hands, it signifies that you have no weapons, that you're not trying to be aggressive, that you are submitting Like vulnerability. The raising of hands is an act of surrender to God. As an act of surrender to God is like self-denying, it's a self-denying action that says God, I acknowledge that you are God and I express to you with my whole being not just my mind and spirit, but with my body also that you are God. With my whole self, I glorify you. So tune in again next week and we're gonna dive into just a few more concepts about this idea of lifting our hands and worship.
Speaker 1:And remember, if ever we put the messenger before the message, we have failed to present an unblemished gospel. I'm Greg Thomas. Join us again right here next week, here in the choir room.
